Accounting Discussion

Posted by & filed under Assemblies, Past Proposals.

This week is the week: we dont have enough money to meet our recurring budgets. Accounting does not feel ok about spending the rest of our money on a ‘first come, first serve’ basis (ie, if kitchen found accounting first, they could take all the rest of the money and no one else would get any.)

So, what we would like to do on Tuesday is reserve some time for a conversation about how to handle this, and hopefully from this discussion will come a proposal which we can reach consensus upon.

292 Responses to “Accounting Discussion”

  1. Monica McLaughlin

    Suspend all recurring disbursements. We are a revolution and must be able to respond to changes immediately. The money was given out during a time when there was a lot of money in the bank and a lot of money coming in. Let’s be flexible and realistic.

    • Trish OWS

      Occupy Collective,

      DO NOT suspend all recurring disbursements. The money was given out

      for many reasons, unfortunately….

      one of those reasons was to was to hide the monies that were being

      swindled.

      The right hand had no time to view what the left hand was up to…

      • Cynthia Price

        I think we need to have a proposal that the account is frozen are until transparency and standard accounting procedures are in place. Someone writing a proposal for Saturday on how all the money is going to be split up anyway. So now i can focus on checks and balances and transparency of donations.

    • M.I. Rights

      Do you all feel it slipping away? Now that the real America sees you for what you are? Is throwing your shit at others going to help. It usually gets my 1 year old a bath, fresh diaper and a hug. Is that what you all need? Poor little baby throwing shit around; a 1 year old gets a pass you do not.

  2. Sally Marks

    The big bucket is nearly empty. Does it really matter what happens to the last drops? This discussion should of occured five months ago. Or four, or three… The barn door has been left open, the cows are all gone, all that is left is a little hay and some BS.

    • anna

      Yep. Let’s just blow it on May Day or maybe an ice cream party at whole foods.

    • Trish OWS

      Dear 99% Collective…

      Yes, this discussion should have occurred months ago but, would it have

      been in ANY WG interest to present a proposal to the General

      Assembly?

      Effectively, Finance WG is not to be considered an autonomous …

      making decisions an an autonomous body w/o the input or

      knowledge of the GA!

      In hindsight, the big bucket was raided, monies were put in smaller

      buckets…and various other venues,

      Nevertheless, just enough was left to have us confronting this proposed

      bogus discussion.

      The barn door was left ajar, it was a (trust issue)…

      And, now whomever takes up position associated with this group…be

      ready to continuously confront those issues.

    • image

      The suggestion to close barn doors was made by Monica et al after the imagined million dollar cows fled.
      WHY?
      WHY WAIT UNTIL NOW TO REPEATEDLY STATE A FALSEHOOD ABOUT A MILLION DOLLARS?

  3. Cynthia Price

    Whatever the money is spent on should be Transparent. I haven’t seen that to be the case. Vague reports like $8,000 spent on kitchen last week, is hard to believe when looking at the food given out. Appears money is being pocketed, I would love to be wrong about that and transparency would clear all that up. Money will bring opportunists, look at congress. Lets be different.

    • Justin Samuels

      Transparency will still bring opportunists……………..

      • Cynthia Price

        But they look for easy targets, till that money gets dried up or they are found out and on to the next. I have seen many an embezzler its the guy/girl next door and neighbors are shocked.

    • horaciotovar

      I work for the kitchen and I agree that money is disappearing. I work for the Liberty cafe that provides daily supper m-f and we can usually do it for less than $1,500. I would like to know where $8,000 went. Also, there was $600 alotted for computers that never appeared. Are there spreadsheets, receipts any level of accountability this late in the game? We should prioritize food. It brings us together every day in a bonding ritual and provides real/tangible nourishment to the movement. It also shows that this movement is opposed to the greed of selfish individuals who only want to feed themselves. Sharing is a central value within this movement and we show this everyday through the kitchen.

  4. DirekConek (aka Dallas)

    Outreach!!! It’s the main thing that brings in more money.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      I don’t think we know what does bring in money other than the existence of the protestors (not only the campers) in Zucotti Park. Unfortunately, that was spontaneous in that we do not know how to recreate it or something similar that will cause donations to once again flourish.

    • horaciotovar

      I would like to see more accountability within the movement before I see more money.

  5. sumumba

    THANK U DALLAS….some folks think ‘ACTIONS ALONE’ will suffice….do u know we raised about 10,000$ just from sending out THANK U CARDS over the holidays? OUTREACH and Civility and Engagement, will BUILD this movement quicker than just ‘TACTICS AND STRATEGY’ or ‘AUTONOMOUS ACTIONS’ BOTH fund raising and otherwise…

  6. Cynthia Price

    Im confused, what is the point of Outreach and Fundraising if a Million dollars is gone in less than 6 months. I tell all my friends, “dont donate” There is no Transparency, and I estimate 75% of the money is stolen

    • Trish OWS

      WHAT A SECOND…

      Which holidays? And, do we see this in any minutes?

      And the bottom line ….the exact people we have issues with continue and

      probably will continue to collect from names on that mailing list without

      any oversight!

  7. Cynthia Price

    I dont even think im gonig to bother going tonight. I will be saying “Transparency, Transparency, Transparency” so our money is not Stolen, and I apparently will Stand alone. Think ill go to Nobu for dinner with a friend.

  8. sumumba

    75% is rather high Cynthia…and i say that as im increasingly a skeptic…but it seems like MRG is more transparent that OWS ..i have no hard evidence against accounting and generally like most people in that wg..ive never seen malfeasance and we have actually USED alot of that money…but then things like ‘bail funds and jail support’ made things very murky to me…not to mention 25gs going to OO which doesnt even embrace non-violence and 1250 going to some ‘food program’ in mcdonald’s..both ‘approved’ by the GA…

    • Cynthia Price

      75% was not the case, when we were occupying the Park and through Decmeber. I do beleive 75% is accurate NOW and the last 6 weeks. I am 100% positive there is no way the Kitchen spent more than 25% of what they say in the last 6 weeks.. I would love to be proved wrong about this. Clearly what kitchen was in November pre-raid isnt close to what it could be now, whats the number difference?

      • janelleb

        I noticed that the food offered starting from about November, 2011 until now is less in each plate, the portions smaller, the ingredients seem less expensive. I guess I thought it was because they were losing funds – there are two ways to look at this. First, they had less money and made us less food. Second, someone took money and made less food for us. Before accusing kitchen of anything it would be best to figure things out.

    • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

      I can vouch for the “food program” actually happening to some extent, as I def spot checked on that. As to whether all money went where it was supposed to go, only Razor and folks handling receipts know that….

      The idea was to make it so people could keep a coffee or food in front of them in order to stay warm and/or catch a nap in McD’s. In retrospect, yeah, that was dumb.

      We made several IMHO dumb financial decisions during the month or so after the eviction…. ya know, maybe because many of us lived through a major violation of our rights and well-being and have yet to see ANY justice meted out to the persons responsible? People were definitely not thinking as calmly and rationally as would be optimal.

      Theft is theft and I don’t excuse that, but poor decision making for a period of time after what happened on 11/15 isn’t particularly surprising in hindsight. I wish some people would stop talking about it like it shows that we’re all irresponsible assholes never to be trusted with money again…. ugh.

      • sumumba

        agreed D…i just think we need a BETTER AND MORE REALISTIC system to handle the money…maybe allow the ALTERNATIVE BANKING GROUP handle it…i hear they are off the charts in their work. I plan to be apart of that group soon!

      • Sean McKeown

        It wasn’t a food program, it was a housing program. ;)

        • Cynthia Price

          are christine and ravi are only ones who receive donations and disburse money and also keep the records. who has keys to the po box?

          • Christine

            nope. not at all. but we’re definitely the only ones with the patience left to deal with everybody who wants to call us liars and thieves from behind the safety of a computer screen, when everybody in accounting is working their asses off every day to make sure that we make things legal and transparent.

          • Justin Samuels

            @christine Well, you, Ravi, and the rest of the crew could do this. You are not obligated to handle OWS finances. If you’re going to be criticizes so much, you could say the hell with it and let your critics such as Monica see if they can do better. The fund is nearly bankrupt anyway, so if they screw up does it really matter? And even when there was money, it didn’t go to that many good things. Perhaps OWS should get rid of the money entirely!

          • Monica McLaughlin

            Christine, you are working your ass off and are out of patience. Well we have something in common anyway. Pray tell us exactly what it is you are working your ass off at. I know you don’t have a paying J-O-B (dirty word). We have asked and asked and asked what exactly it is you are doing. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell us.

          • Cynthia Price

            @johndoe79 Good suggestion!. They should just let us handle it for awhile and see how we do. Ill do it with whoever wants to help, even christine, ravi, Monica, Trish. I do realize the sensitiity of transparency on some issues when you have a million dollars, but unfortunately that was abused and no room for that anymore

      • sumumba

        but will we ever? if any of these allegations are ‘true’ i think we’ll never know…BUT…as i;ve been told …perhaps we need to learn from what went wrong and create something better…that’s where my focus is…if u can find the money trail and PROVE money was stolen…fine but i think we are wasting time on this endeavor…its Spring we have a real opportunity to re-ignite this movement…we have alt banking and examples across the country of it…and credit unions and mrg now involved too…lets refocus here…

        • @CynPrice

          I agree, I say lets start now so we dont have this conversation 6 months from now and all these threads closed. :ets adopt a plan that money from the public/future donations arent stelen, which they are…

        • Monica McLaughlin

          We have zero chance of changing the world, if we cannot get this right.

  9. sumumba

    not sure…but everything is speculative at this point…till we get some HARD numbers and proof we really cant say whats what..but i do know food and the metros were important to many of us doing the day to day works…

    • Cynthia Price

      I keep asking, ill ask again, where are the receipts, books, accounting. What system are they using, Quickbooks, excel, etc.? Who does Accounting. Christine is used as a front to block anyone from seeing receipts and was as far as I got. but she is the contact at finance@nycga.net. She lied to me several times. I like her, so im confused about the lies.

      • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

        So Christine lied to you and you’re giving us ALL a hard time and trying to keep *anything* we do that requires funding from happening…. maybe you should reflect on that and then have a discussion with *Christine* if you feel this is the case.

        I haven’t seen much more than you have re: the books and receipts, but the fact is, bills still have to be paid. I’ve learned the value in life of putting pragmatism before perfectionism. Don’t stop asking for transparency, but PLEASE DO stop addressing the situation in a manner that makes it sound like the entire movement conspired to defraud donors.

        • Cynthia Price

          I dont think 95% of the movement is consipiring to defraud donors but someone is stopping Transparency. Who is it? i just said i dont think we should MISLEAD THE GENERAL PUBLIC that most of our money is accountable, when it is not., we hae to be honest DIFFERENT FROM OUR GOVT.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            We should all be screaming our heads off and stamping our feet! No one has seen any evidence of what donations are coming in. Those in charge make up whatever figures they wish. If they are not doing this, why are the books closed?!

          • Justin Samuels

            To tell you the truth, the money is symptomatic of a bigger problem with OWS.

            No official leaders and no actual processes.

            If the CFO of a company mishandled money at a corporation, he would be FIRED.

            There is no way to fire the accounting group. Try to pass a proposal against them at GA, and they will block it.

            And by the way, accounting, I’m not accusing you of wrong doing. Just using this as an example of how flawed the overall situation is.

            So, if you really have problems with this situation, Monica, Cynthia, the solution is this.

            Let it fall apart. If people are doing things the wrong will, it will eventually 100% collapse, as it should. We’re pretty much there anyway.

          • Urbaned

            No, Justin, if the CFO of a company mismanaged funds, he would not be fired. Watch “Inside Job.” You will be reminded of why we’re here and see that this is very small potatoes. It’s also laughable how the people ranting and raving here are totally off track about fixing the problem. Just because we can’t come up with a new accounting system, let’s find scapegoats and rant and rave instead.

    • Trish OWS

      Christine,

      Let’s be me be perfectly clear. This is what I, and many others discuss

      and comprehend…and i will repeat this in person, anywhere, anytime,

      any place.

      First: Ravi, is the new girl in town (Finance) no one views her, ask

      knowing anymore than you or other allow her to know.

      Second: Do you want us to believe that Finance has never, ever, been less than

      transparent in dealing with the movement’s resources?

      Third: Do you want us to believe that all questionable instances of misfeasance are

      baseless and should not be addressed by anyone?

      Fourth: That Finance has behaved in an ethical, legal, and responsible manner…

      although no on in that group has Accounting skills? And, more importantly, those

      with skills who have seen (some) things …DO NOT want to be associated with what

      they have viewed (they ran in the opposite direction)?

      LAIRS & THIEVES, if you personally do not feel this is fair to you…then only speak

      for yourself…DO NOT SPEAK, for all those OTHERS …

      MORE iMPORTANTLY, when there are those out to swindle others….

      they leave themselves open to be swindled.

      Monica, let’s be real…

      • @CynPrice

        How did Ravi even get to be a Signer on the Account? Wow thats scary?

  10. Cynthia Price

    @sumumba I love the Metro Cards and Food programs!!! I still support them. I am saddened, that it isnt there next month for those in OWS becasue of the lack of transparency no doubt caused by those stealing If your not stealing, why would you care if anyone saw books, receipts.
    @direkConek Because it needs to get to the public not to Donate to a cause that has theives and no checks and balances. that 75% of their money goes to non ows theives. This is the lesson, whenever there is money involved will bring dark, greedy people who refuse to be transparant and will topple and smash people like me and the transparent system. The reason they usually win, is they are getting something out of it “Money” and their “greed and power” fed, while to expose them is costing me money and i get nothing but heartache. TONIGHTS DISCUSSION SHOULD BE ON checks and balances and HOW TO NOT LET ANYONE STEAL THE MONEY AS I GUARANTEE AND AS WE KNOW, there are people in OWS right now hovering around the money and dont care about OWS and there always will be. Which is why we need a system in place that could never be toppled.

    • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

      Allegations aren’t proof, but it’s seems you’ve got everyone convicted already, @cynprice .

      May I respectfully suggest that you find another website to post on if you don’t think people should donate to the NYCGA general fund?

      Server co-location and bandwidth bills don’t pay themselves.

      • Cynthia Price

        I agree, it is costly to have websites, emails, employees to update, but there should be receipts for all this.

        • Christine

          there are receipts for all this. jeeze. well, not employees. but the rest of the tech stuff. they’ve always been good about documenting their expenditures.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            Christine, scan and upload the bank statements and the statements from the fiscal sponsor PLEASE.

          • Cynthia Price

            Good Try to twist that but we arent talking about Tech, we are talking about Kitchen. And I asked to see simple metro card receipts, its that paper you get everytime you buy a metro card, single or in bulk

      • Monica McLaughlin

        This is a public open forum. The donors have a right to know that their money is falling into a black hole.

        • Cynthia Price

          I came here to expose Govt Corruption theft, now I have to spend time on OWS theft? Seriously??

        • reginahny

          No surprise to most but I absolutely agree with this. It definitely feels like “closing the barn door after the horse has bolted”, but I still think transparency around all that transpired would be a great starting point and learning opporutnity for the next steps the movement takes financially.
          To be required / asked / taunted over and over again (as in the post below regarding metrocards) to: ask for specific statements; go to specific meetings; request specific documentation; accept background checks etc. ad nauseum in order to request transparency is just smoke screen. There is no elaborate request process needed @Christine, just post everything (with any personal / account info redacted) and let us decide, as well as plan, for ourselves.
          I’ve got to finish my day job work to get to the Support March for Trayvon Martin, and I look forward to seeing those who can make it there. Meantime, just. post. the. frickin. financial. info. if. you. don’t. have. anything. to. hide. Even if that contains embarassing mistakes — no worries — we all make mistakes, we have a big capacity to understand. What many of us don’t understand is the machinations to avoid transparency. See, now I’m tired again. Sigh.

          • Cynthia Price

            exactly, i have to expose corruption in ows and get to the march too, wish i could just do the latter.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            There is no defamation of character involved here. Truth is an absolute defense meaning that the court would subpoena the financial records. If anything was amiss, the case would be.dismissed. additionally scores of occupiers would be subpoenaed to tthinkrather that everyonethe willy.

        • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

          They have the right to know that’s a matter of opinion too.

          I’m all for full documentation (Christine, if there is any documentation of our accounts that has not be made available, kindly post it or have someone else do so so we can all move on), but I’m really not a fan of lynch mobs either.

          Your tone strongly implies that you don’t believe that there’s any chance that the information that we now get reliably at every Spokes and GA is correct and true. Yet you have no more evidence of this than Christine has shown us that it is. In short, without someone showing SOME tangible documentation and the sooner the better, this is all just a lot of sound and fury.

          Me, I’m busy trying to find ways to keep this moving and growing… as much as I DON’T like the idea that money has been mishandled, a lot of money was properly handled and despite what you may have heard we do probably have to use it for the immediate future.

          Therefore, I do see the need to get our financial documentation and approval processes in far better order going forward… I DO NOT see a need to tell the people that help support Occupiers with clean clothes, free books, food, and this website (among various other items and services) that donating to OWS is putting their money in a black hole.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            Please stop with the tone nonsense. That card has been played and replayed.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            We do not have any idea what percentage of the donations even make it to the GA. That is a sin. That OWS would open itself up to public criticism over money management is just an plain weird. Maybe the Accounting group is trying ti destroy the movement

          • Cynthia Price

            Email #2 below is After meeting Christine & Ravi at Finance mtg on a Friday night (which i was subsequently told is on Saturday nights so guess christine and ravi were sent to appease me on a Friday, and yes i was with someone else)
            #email #2
            Hi Christine, so I went to your meeting, but didnt really get what I was looking for. I was looking to help the people to keep this all transpararent, you know, by keeping the receipts, and checks together, etc.

            Like the Kitchen, it doesnt appear $8,000 was actually spent, so everyone is talking about it one on one, though not in a group. I would love to say, that is what we spent, but dont know where that all happens.

            And my memory was that the records were to be transpararent. Transparent doesnt mean $8,000 kitchen, it means $2000 to guy who provides kitchen, $2000 on meat and eggs. etc.

            I also was told that the Finance meetings are on Saturday.

          • Christine

            Every single Saturday (barring last Saturday- it was obviously a crazy day do we decided to hold off for the tuesday discussion that this whole thread was supposed to be about) we show up at the GA and give a report, with accurate numbers. We always have a printout from the bank which we always get just before close on Friday, showing the same numbers that we report. We also always have statements with us, and announce that anybody who is interested can come up after the reportback and see them. So far, NO ONE HAS.

            Every single Saturday we have an open meeting before GA, and are available to answer questions/address concerns/etc. Thats where I met Cynthia.. at the Saturday meeting. (Cynthia, there was a GA right after, remember? So it couldnt have been Friday.) But it might have felt that way, because generally nobody shows up.

            You can all come see bank statements. But we’re not posting them online. We’ve been through this a thousand times on these forums. If you care to verify that we’re not lying, carve some time out of your day and come see the statements. If its not worth your time to come verify that we’re not lying, then what it indicates to me is that for whatever reason you’re more interested in making accusations stirring up rumors than you are in finding out the truth.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            Here we have Christine once again promising to produce financial records. Is this the fifth or sixth time this promise has been made now?

          • Monica McLaughlin

            “Christine, if there is any documentation of our accounts that has not yet been posted, please post it” said Dallas. Are you kidding me?!¡! You know perfectly well that not a single piece of documentation has EVER been posted.

          • Christine

            Monica, I have been showing up with bank statements to our open meetings, and GAs. You’ve never shown up to look at them. We’re not posting them online. But I’ve met you before, you live here, if you care as much as you claim to, I would think you’d make time to come look at them.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            @christine, you have NEVER made any bank statements available EVER. You always are going to do it or you did it last night or last week.

            When can I come to see the bank statements. I want to see the entire statement, not just the dollar amount and I want to see EVERY single statement. A 2-hour notice is not enough for me, because I have an actual paying J-O-B (dirty word). Do you know what it is like to work for a living, Christine.

          • Justin Samuels

            @ monjon @sallyarks and at @cynprice Okay, what you guys are doing at this point is libel and defamation of character. You guys are attacking accounting and accusing them of criminal behavior repeatedly, without any evidence.

            If Christine or Ravi apply for future jobs, and their employers google them and pull up all these old nycga.net claims, it won’t be good. Because if they are denied employment because of this, they can sue Monica, Cynthia, and Sally for defamation of character. Would you like to use money from your job to support Christine, Ravi, and the rest of the accounting group long term?

  11. Cynthia Price

    @direkConek Are you suggesting we lie to people and tell them their donations are transparent? I was lied to in order to get a donation…not cool

    Sounds like something Congress would do. I thought we were going to be an example to the US govt how finances should be.

  12. DirekConek (aka Dallas)

    No, I’m suggesting that if you don’t like how the money got there, stop spending it!

    • Monica McLaughlin

      We want to see evidence of donations and of expenditures. Bank statements and statements of account from the fiscal sponsor. Transparency is owed to the donors.

      • Cynthia Price

        @monjon22 good point. we could have got 5,000 in donations last week, and they just say we got 200 dollars. I would love to be present when they disburse money, i have the time,

        • Justin Samuels

          Cynthia, are you and Monica just upset that you aren’t getting a check yourselves? You accuse Christine of misspending money, but from your tone it sounds like if she were willing to give you a cut, you’d go out and party!

          • Monica McLaughlin

            There is no reason for me to get a check or so much as a metro card. I do not feel entitled to spend the donor dollars like many others do. What does this have to do with not wanting the donor’s dollars to be stolen or mismanaged?

          • sumumba

            Justin and Urbaned.. …from reading your threads..i believe u, Cynthia and Monica are actually all on the same page…PLEASE let’s be gentle and hear each other out…Monica wants to make sure OWS or Accounting has not been mismanaging funds..as im sure this a concern or yours and mines as well..we need NOT continually attack one another on this thread or make unsubstantiated SERIOUS legal allegations toward one another…further…even if someone or a bunch of folks stole or didnt…they could or couldn’t do that without a system or structure in place that would allow it…i say we move on and create a NEW transparent and BETTER one…if it means that people ‘donate’ just for metros while others for food while still others for actions…maybe we need to do that instead just for starters…

          • Urbaned

            When OWS started, I created a WG called “Restorative Justice.” It was meant to be a method for us to resolve our problems. (Since then, Mediation started to fulfill that requirement.) In my naive idealism, I didn’t think there would ever be a need for any one of us to sue another. The reason being that the legal system is part and parcel of the 1%. I am hoping for an indigenous type of justice system, like Restorative Justice circles, etc. I did not think that within 6 months, someone would threaten to sue another occupier, and I also see the accounting problems, as others have said, as start-up issues. We started up without a structure and mistakes happened. I’d like to move on with a more transparent approach, too. Thank you for Occu-Evolve, Sumumba; it’s a great idea!

  13. Cynthia Price

    @direkConek im not alleging, it is a fact. I simply asked to see the receipt for the metro cards on the day they bought them last week and asked to see them for 6 weeks now. Are you saying its not INSANE that there are no receipts for metro cards in the amount of $12,000 a month (they say) NO RECEIPTS???? Are we even allowed to have our non profit status with no receipts for a re-occuring expense. I get a receipt every time I buy one. WHATS THE BIG DEAL OF SHOWING PAST METRO CARD RECEIPTS.

    • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

      Well, that’s hearsay… so yes, an allegation. Can you tell me which day and who told you this? Without times, dates, names, this is wild hearsay. Type all the CAPS you want and it will still be hearsay.

      Naturally, I would have a huge problem with $12K of purchases and no receipts to show for them. I also have a problem with pages of rants, rumors, and allegations with no factual basis.

      • Monica McLaughlin

        No, that isn’t hearsay. Hearsay is when one repeats something they heard from a third party. Hearsay is usually not allowed in a court of law.

        We do have enough evidence to make accusations though. And there is enough evidence to convict in a court of law. The refusal of persons to show financial records to those entitled to see those.records along with. Lots of unaccounted for cash

        • Urbaned

          When OWS started, I prayed for a new system of justice, called “Restorative Justice.” Threatening to use legal means against a fellow occupier should be a very last resort, and is an outgrowth of a corrupt system of law instigated by the 1%. Sorry, Monica, I know you’re a lawyer, but you need to start thinking outside the box, and stop being so “litigious.” It’s harming us.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            And I suppose that the American.people.demanding accountability for from our government is also harming the country too. @urbaned, what I ask for on behalf of the activists, suppoters and donors is exactly what the Occupy movement is asking of our Government. Btw, do you understand the meaning of the word “litigiou”? Your use of the word here makes no sense to me. Could you explain what you mean? Thanks.

          • Urbaned

            “Litigious” means concerned with lawsuits or litigation. Rather than threaten to go that route with fellow Occupiers, when OWS started, I dreamed of being able to independently (from courts) discuss issues with one another and “restore the community” to a sense of wholeness – in our case, maybe like some of the better days at Zuccotti.

            The goal of Restorative Justice is not financial restitution, (the ‘value’ of an ‘eye’ for an ‘eye’) rather, it strives for a sense of well-being and peace in the community. So, people who claim to be harmed by one another (for example, you by Christine) can one day achieve harmony.

            Our current system of justice causes people to divide and go their own ways, however, in our unified society of 99%, this will be challenging, since we want to dwell together.

            For some more information about RJ, see: http://owsrestorativejustice.wikispaces.com/ (By the way, I facilitated one session with a group in Phoenix, AZ. I don’t know what happened to the notes because the WG was archived. I suppose they can be found if necessary – or I can look back into my notebook.)

  14. Cynthia Price

    I have lots of emails asking to see receipts of the metro cards, therefore i have all the dates, days and times and who.. I also brought a witness to the 2 times i went in person (you think im dumb enough to not bring someone). if you would like, i will forward it all to you. send me private email of where i can forward all this to you.

    • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

      Better idea:

      since I can understand that you wouldn’t want your email posted publicly on this website

      and

      this is probably the first thing I would do with your forwarded emails anyway….

      why don’t you redact YOUR email address (but not the recipent) and show us all the email(s) you sent right here on this site?

      Hard to have a place to stand asking for transparency if you do not provide it.

        • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

          Posting your email on a forum is pretty much the #1 way to end up getting spam and malware. It’s not even about us having the info.

          • Cynthia Price

            I am posting the emails now, here is email #3 after getting blown off on emails 1 and 2 which i will post.

          • Cynthia Price

            Email, very nicely asking to help:
            Help with Accounting‏
            3/11/12 accounting@nycga.net
            From: Cynthia Price Sent: Sun 3/11/12 9:49 PM
            To: accounting@nycga.net

            Hi. I would love to help with the details of accounting. I have an extensive Accounting background, referrences, etc. I am not sure where the actual work is being done (do you use quickbooks?). etc. I have lots of free time on my hands and have been with OWS since Before September 17!!!! I did go to a finance meeting at the Atrium, but it was clearly not where/how the accounting is being done. Thank you.

            Cynthia Price

          • Monica McLaughlin

            Dallas, that is a risk many of us.are willing to take.

    • Christine

      whoa… hey so nobody has asked me to see the metrocard receipts. but accounting has them. and i’m happy to show them to you. you know, if thats something you’re interested in.

      • Monica McLaughlin

        Whoa. . . Christine how about you upload the bank statements and the account statements from the fiscal sponsor? PLEASE

      • Cynthia Price

        I would love to see all metro card receipts, great christine, bring them saturday.

      • Cynthia Price

        Ummm i never asked u for metro card receipts. Email #3
        Hi Cynthia-
        Questions regarding specifics of metrocards should be directed to the Housing working group, as they handle the purchasing and distribution. However, I believe that they buy them at a bulk rate from the MTA.

        Regarding records of expenditures, and location of receipts etc: our expenditures are posted at accounting.nycga.net- go to the expenditures tab at the top. All of our original documentation and receipts are kept at a secure storage facility.

        Thanks for your kind offer of help. We are currently working on getting receipts and records sorted and organized so that we can send them to our fiscal sponsor, all accounting, preparation for filing, etc is done by them. We do often have projects and need volunteers, for instance sorting receipts by date and group, etc. I would be happy to email you and let you know of upcoming work sessions.

        Solidarity,

        -Christine

        On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Cynthia Price wrote:

        Hi Christine,

        1. I am concerned the MetroCard money is running out for people that really need it that are working very hard at OWS like yourself and Shumbuya (spelling??) Where and when is the Metrocards handed out. Where do you purchase the 120 cards?

        2. SpokesCouncil: Where is the next Spokescouncil, it says TBD on the Website.

        3. Regarding Transparancy: Who and where are the receipts, specific expenses kept on the website, along with Kitchen. I understand we do pay someone for use of their Kitchen and Utilities, where are those records and receipts kept. I thought they were on the website, more important, where are the receipts. I AM A VERY EXPERIENCED BOOKKEEPER AND WOULD LOVE TO HELP KEEP THIS ALL ORGANIZED.

        THANK U.

        Cynthia Price
        Tom Pozgay

    • Sean McKeown

      Cynthia, you asked *me* for the metrocard receipts because I seemed to be clueful about what was going on, and I “refused” to give them to you because I am not in Accounting or Housing and/or have any other reason to have access or possession of them. When you were there, it was noted that Stan was the person who got the metrocards and thus would be the one who had the receipt, and he did not bring it to the park with him – not an unreasonable decision given he was about to get swarmed for 120 metrocards – and had not yet provided it to Accounting so they could not give it to you.

      “Ask an Occupier” is not the same as “grounds to accuse Accounting”. Even when you bring a witness. He seemed nice, bring him more often!

      • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

        /smacks forehead

        That’s right! I forgot Sean is the leader this week! So if he doesn’t have the answer, we as a movement must all be irresponsible crooks!

      • Cynthia Price

        he is nice. He wants to know where is donation went. He is head of a multimillion dollar large nyc corp and lived here 30 years, and supports ows, and upset about the transparency which is why he comes with me.

  15. Christine

    GA didnt really happen last night in a which people felt like reasonable decisions could be made about spending, or any other proposals. We’re planning to try again Thursday.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      who is “we” and who are “people”? Are you revering to the OWS 1% elites?

      • Sean McKeown

        Basic reading teaches us that since there is a proposal being discussed, that “we” implies “the proposers of that proposal”.

    • reginahny

      I’m a little lost in “thread reply” chains, see my post above for my overall thoughts. And, what exactly are “we” trying again Thursday?

    • Cynthia Price

      Discuss? no need See i could print out all my inocme and expenses for last month and my bank statements and receipts to match in about 5 minutes, thats all it takes. it all speaks for itself and what i would give the irs, i can show you how easy it is

    • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

      A lot of the time when stuff like this is asked, Ravi answers, but I think she’s doing jail support right now.

      Oh yeah: BTW that costs money too (food, metrocard). PLEASE stop saying things like the money goes in a black hole.

      • Cynthia Price

        Ravi, met me & my ceo friend with christine, and gave us some typed paper, anyone could type (acct would have a report generated from excel or quickbooks) ..just sayin it like it is

        • Justin Samuels

          Cynthia,

          Its quite clearly you and Monica are trolls out to destroy. The funny thing is, there is nothing left to destroy!!!

          If you want to get the accounting working group arrested, call the IRS. Beyond that there is nothing that you two can do. Nothing. Complaining and making baseless accusations proves nothing. If you have evidence of criminal activity, call the authorities. Let me say that I have no such evidence, and no intention of doing so, but if you think something bad is going on refer it to the relevant authorities.

          • Urbaned

            OWS has a built-in structure of Mediation and Restorative Justice. No one wants to use it, though.

            Like you said, Monica – this is a revolution. That means you have to change the way you think. Let’s all take a deep breath and give one another some slack.

      • Cynthia Price

        @direkconek I think people getting out jail should get bail, metrocards, lunch and dinner, they must be hungry. I even think livestreamers should be paid, I even think christine should be paid if it was all done with..that word again..transparency. If i was getting donations from the p.o. box i would insist someone, anyone who chooses be with me to pick up donations and with me to the bank and receipts to the bookkeeper. I would insist to avoid any controversy

  16. DirekConek (aka Dallas)

    @monjon22 If you’re told repeatedly that there is a problem with your tone, maybe it’s not a ‘card’ or ‘nonsense’.

    I have no problem with wanting full transparency, but you have repeatedly addressed this matter in an accusatory (and often condescending) fashion despite having no more access to documentation than most of the rest of us.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      If we sound angry, accusatory and fed up, that is because we ARE angry, accusing and fed up.

      Dallas, you have a sweet tone. Do tell — how’s that working out for you? Seen any financial records yet?

      • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

        See Christine’s last post with the Weekly report for last week.

      • Justin Samuels

        Being accusatory has not gotten you anywhere, though in terms of getting info from them, has it. Again, if you truly think something illegal has happened, talk to the government. Otherwise, its time to drop it.

        • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

          Bingo! If as much money as I hear about here is missing, I am sure either the NYPD or the IRS is itching to hear about it (and probably would have done something already, as this is a public website and is almost surely monitored).

          • Sally Marks

            Dallas, you know, you’d think so but if ‘the man’ was interested in taking down OWS as the paranoid and conspiracy people claim, you would think they would be tickled pink to know we have ‘missing funds’.
            I can picture a smoke filled room, a bunch of fat guys drinking 50 year old scotch, laughing at the ‘daily dossier’ of OWS and the copies of bank statements that show suddenly dropping balances without corresponding expenditures. Done for the day, they go off to dine at the Four Seasons, billing it to ‘medical expenses’ (a man needs to eat to live, right?)

            Justin, I am not so worried about the past ‘issues’, I am worried about the ones that are going to happen tomorrow. The OWS has some terrible damage and no one is fixing it. The crew keeps dashing the hull against the rocks and is laughing all the way to the bank.
            We can do little about yesterday, we can do everything about tomorrow.

          • Justin Samuels

            @sallyarks Again, if its this much corruption, filing a report with the government authorities is the only possible way to address it.

            Period. the NYPD has no problem arresting occupiers, the past few days have proven. Therefore, if there’s actual evidence of criminal wrongdoing, they’d arrest accounting. So if you guys have evidence of it, please supply it to the proper authorities.

            Otherwise, you’re just attacking the people in accounting for no good reason.

        • Urbaned

          That is a wrong solution, Justin. OWS is meant to be an alternative system. Dragging our “comrades” into court sounds like “Animal Farm.” We are all in this together. Yelling, being opaque about actions, and fighting is just what the 1% wants. Shall we evolve, or not?

          • Justin Samuels

            Occupiers have already dragged occupiers into court. People have call the police on occupiers for sexual and physical assault, as occupy cannot deal with these things. And occupy has no rights to shield someone from the law.

            And I will say that if someone in occupy did something wrong, injurious, or illegal to me, I would not hesitate to use the legal system.

            But lets get back to reality. Every occupier arrested uses the National Lawyers Guild. We would have been permanently banned from Zuccotti a long time ago had it not been for the NLG lawyers and the courts.

            Occupy used considerable resources from the system, so it isn’t an alternative system at all, no matter how much it wanted to be. It uses bank accounts, accepts payments processed through mastercard and visa, write checks (all checks are cleared through the federal reserve). It uses the systems public transportation to get around town. Alternate indeed………..

          • Justin Samuels

            With that said, I do not believe Christine and Ravi have done anything illegal. I just think Monica and Cynthia believe that they are doing something illegal, and are actually hoping to cut side deals to get some cash. LOL But from seeing Christine and Ravi in person I’m pretty sure that they aren’t that kind of person.

      • Sean McKeown

        Actually, I’ve been nice and working on building up a relationship based on trust with Christine, Ravi and others, and because of this (and my agreement to abide by their other practices, which include not posting records to anywhere else unless and until a GA proposal tells them they should follow such a protocol) I actually possess a copy of the bank records Christine brought to GA last night.

        You catch more flies with honey, etc. How’s that being mean on the Internet thing working out for you so far?

        • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

          Which brings up a key point: you could probably just bring a prop to post PDFs of the bank statements with the account numbers blacked out or something. It would certainly get you farther than haranguing people on a forum.

  17. Monica McLaughlin

    Uh, you were talking about Christine’s.tone, not mine. The tone crap is.told.to. ALL who request transparency.

    • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

      It’s really not though, and asserting that all donor monies go into a black hole is not a request.

  18. Cynthia Price

    So who are the 2 signers on the accounts Christine and Ravi??? Or Can the 5 people in accounting that actualy do the accounting please come forward.

    • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

      Last I heard Chepe is a signer too… could be old info though.

  19. Sally Marks

    The ‘cash cow’ is dead. No one in Accounting will tell anyone why. I did notice that those who were there when the cow was healthy, have left. Interesting coincidence.
    The big donations have ceased and they will not return until transparency occurs. Fact of life.Donations were given to further the movement. The money was given to make OWS grow fat, not fund a bunch of peoples day to day lives. It was not there a year ago and now it is gone again. A lot of really good things could of been done with that money, OWS’s money but people wanted it spent on them, the individual.
    I know future donations I make will be done in a manner to groups that are responsible. I tell others I know what information I have learned about this entire debacle. If everyone thinks the big banks and government are bad, they really need to take a few minutes and reflect in the mirror. The biggest demons are those within.

    • Sean McKeown

      The “cash cows” are now called affinity group funding and the Movement Resources Group. They still moo, but are not presently accountable to the General Assembly, and make no bones about that fact – Accounting at least tries, and holds fast to the understanding that they should be accountable but haven’t yet been able to succeed at that goal. When’s the last time an affinity group action provided a receipt? The next time it happens will be the first time.

      • Sally Marks

        MRG is nothing at all like what OWS accounting was, only comparable in that they have/had funds. Not even the same league. Accounting did not try although, I do say Ravi is trying very hard-the first in the group but she was left playing the game of musical chairs and all the chairs were gone when she arrived.

        MRG is not giving anyone a penny without detailed funds expenditure and performance. They will not simply write a person a check. The will be told who the vendors are who need to be paid and upon presentation of an invoice, if the invoice matches with the proposal, a check will be cut. There will be no unaccounted for piles of cash.
        You are comparing a bunch of kids playing sandlot baseball to major leaguers. For months (five) people have pleaded, offered support only to be lied to and stonewalled.

        So no, MRG and the like are not cash cows. No one in OWS really cares who/where funding comes from, as long as it comes. I sincerely doubt any OWSer will refuse funding because it came via MRG or a similar group. Wait until they process the requests for project money. I have spoken with them. I can donate for an approved project, if I choose too. I can be provided copies of all receipts to verify that my funds were used as agreed. Take a look at the website, they post all financial information. If you ask them a question, they will answer.

        “We Won’t Be Fooled Again” – The Who

        • Cynthia Price

          It is my understanding MRG is given by a donor who wants to spend the money how they want. Im cool with that…i donated recently to a specific cause, i dont have to disclose to who, just glad my money went somewhere I know where it went..:)

        • Trish OWS

          FYI

          It’s very probable, that OWS resources have been moved to

          Affinity group(s) as seed money? Also, individual(s) from

          Finance are now principles within these groups.

          Affinity Groups, right do not have to provide receipts.

          WOW, are we having fun, YET?

          • Sean K

            Yep, sounds like direct action by affinity to me. Perfect fit for the OWS organizational model.

    • Trish

      Sally,

      Yes, you’re right…but,

      As long as there is a Spending Freeze, the money that we ALLEDGEDLY…

      DO NOT have CAN NOT be moved or touched, buy those who have left the barn.

      Time, takes time…the General Assembly will take care of it’s business…

      Stay tuned.

  20. Patrick Conway

    Just checked in on the Accounting site. Seems the last set of financial reports — the bare minimum information package necessary for transparency — were produced 5 months ago. I remember them from back when they first came out. What gives?

    That there haven’t been reports since (and income and expense ledgers and the odd bank statement at GA or SC are nowhere near enough for anyone to be able to see what is really happening here), is complete justification for the many complaints here about a lack of transparency. This beast is not transparent. Speaking as a donor myself, I formally make the accusation.

    This goes to leadership, and chain of responsibility. If there had been an elected treasurer who wanted to keep his or her position, there might have been regular, comprehensive reports. But since no one was technically in charge, no one was ultimately responsible, either. That we were making financial decisions all throughout the last five months without decent reporting is definitely negligence — if not on the part of the people involved, then on the part of the process and structure of our non-organization. I won’t be giving again until these weaknesses are corrected.

    Thinking about it a bit more, there was an accounting firm working for us back in October, and if I remember correctly, they decided to leave and I never heard why. Anyone know the answer to that question? Or care to correct me if I’m mistaken? And can anyone explain why they were never replaced when this was all obviously too much for our accounting wg to handle completely on their own? (Also, having a third party involved in this loosey-goosey situation would substantially increase the level of transparency; they could flag their concerns with either individuals or groups in situations where the accounting wg couldn’t, and vice versa.)

    • Sally Marks

      I too find it very interesting that when it was just a bunch of ad hoc people, working in a park under adverse conditions, they were able to keep the numbers together (or at least made a reasonable appearance of doing so) and once they were given an office, suddenly, they were incapable of doing so. Not a single accounting of cash, that elusive commodity that unless you actually see it, has no paper trail. Anyone ever see Casino (DeNiro/Pesci/Stone)? They made cash disappear too.

      Patrick, take a look at those who suddenly jumped ship when the pot bottom became visible for your answer. First the Trademark app failed, then they bailed.

      • Patrick Conway

        I haven’t been keeping up, so I don’t know what that all means. Can you explain it? I do remember Casino; the disappearing cash made some people disappear there too, as I recall. :-)

        • Sally Marks

          As you know, donations came from a variety of sources. Come were credit card and checks, they can through AFGJ, those are the deposits you see on bank statements (if any more get produced, I only saw the ones Darrell managed to get). Any checks and cash, never was deposited. Most of the withdrawals were done in cash also. A pile of cash, is too easy to ‘misplace some’ and it not get noticed, especially if the accounting people ‘can’t keep up the records’.
          In the movie, the cash was not entered into the books until it was in the ‘counting room’, OWS’s 60 B’way. At that point, it is supposed to be entered in to the books. Until it went into the books (and it never did, not a penny) it very easily gets ‘gone’.

          AFGJ needed to be informed of all cash and direct checks to be sure to let the IRS know.

          Currently, the Accounting people are including cash as part of the numbers. For the last few weeks since Ravi (Bless her) got on board.

          Anyone ever notice that Pete Dutro claimed to be working on his masters in Finance? Makes LOL.

          • Patrick Conway

            And the trademark and bailing thing? Who are we talking about, and what’s the deal there?

  21. Jordan Soreff

    Truly time to begin anew. Where can I talk about how to raise money? We need to move ahead without using this broken down cash register. I want us to build a new one, a better one. I want to talk about how to raise money. I don’t like to see us get bogged down in arguing about what happened to the money. It makes me sad and takes away my motivation to do good, to make a better world together, to nurture and grow occupy in the new 2012 spring.

    • Cynthia Price

      Raising money? For all we know we are getting money. How does anyone know we are not? If a million dollars is gone in 5 months, we shouldnt fundraise till we have BASIC accounting procedures in place.

    • Sean K

      Agreed. I wouldn’t give to the GA or OWS, unless I found those making much ado about nothing in a park were useful idiots.

  22. Aston Walker

    Aston Walker from Occupy Birmingham UK. I will be putting on a small film festival and I will be funding it myself. All costs will be placed on website and photocopies of receipts will be placed online also. This will be the modus operandi for all Occupy related activity. |If we take responsibility ourselves then hopefully this will set a standard. I would urge donors to get involved with actvities. Or maybe donors can directly fund certain aspects. For example if I donate $500 to travel expenses. Then I would expect to see receipts for $500. Simple. or food. etc. Maybe donors have to be more hands on and buy the food or cook the food. I’m an award winning director film producer but if I have to put on an apron and serve tea and soup then this is what I have to do! This is Occupy or at least that is what I thought it was. We can overcome this. We need you guys to lead the way being in the heart of the belly of the beast so to speak. We can overcome this. Stay positive people.

  23. Urbaned

    @jordan I agree, it would be good to move on. However, the discussion continues to recur. I may have some information that sheds light on the matter, which is names of people I recall were originally involved in Liberty Plaza, and possibly knew about early money dispersal. [Orwell shows in Animal Farm that in revolutions, there are revolutionaries and reformers...(I am more of the latter) but I think some of our original money went to our revolutionaries (and possibly to Egypt, Spain, and other places).]

    As I stated in other posts, even if a lot of original money is missing, we received a lot of value for it, including being on the cover of Time, developing a national livestream network, creating national GAs, holding dialogue on this site, a kitchen, friendships, comrades,gardens, farms, national connections, etc. I wonder if any original donors really feel ripped off (I know Sally is concerned), or whether they would understand that September 17 was an unexpected historic moment that began in chaos,and we are now producing order (hopefully a new age order of transparency, non-hierarchy (as much as possible) and non-violence. If we get our ship in shape, I think we can still recover and regain donors’ confidence. If not, and OWS fails, then we will all ultimately be very disappointed, not just the original donors. As there is now a new crop of participants, we must provide more transparency by setting up a functioning system (or using another accounting firm). We need to make firm decisions; which, still isn’t coming easily.

    I have a list of about 10 names, and I would not post it to blame or vilify anyone. It might help others who want to contact some of our original members. I was torn about just posting it now, or asking whether to post. (I do believe I mentioned some names in other posts). Would anyone like me to post the list? Would that be helpful?

    • Cynthia Price

      I think most just want to move forward with open books. Its easy to do, so im confused on what the problem is.

      • Urbaned

        The problem is people want accounting for past expenditures. It’s possible that money was lost. Even if it was used for protests, or by affinity groups overseas, it was money well spent. If someone had a steak dinner somewhere along the line, I hope it tasted good.

        If poor accounting occurred in the first six months of OWS, and we evolved into a reformist group that wants transparency, let’s make sure it we do become accountable in the future. Ranting and accusing people is not productive. Let’s set a new path, and move on.

        • Sally Marks

          You need to realize, the requests for transparency started in November. There is absolutely no reason to expect there to be a single change, especially with the same lying, thieving crooks with their hands in the till. Until these criminals are removed, the complaints will continue.
          Accounting even now, is not being transparent. There are ‘missing accounts’, that ‘disappeared’ and a few day later, over $120,000 went ‘poof’. Poor Ravi is doing what she can. But she too, appears to of been lied too and is being treated like a puppet for the back office liars.
          Do you honestly trust BoA to say “Oppsie, we made a mistake in screwing everyone over, we will not do it again” and then every time they pull the same BS, to expect that same canned line of “wait till next month” to fly.
          Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

        • Monica McLaughlin

          @urbaned, who are these people who want accounting for lost records? All the people I know want to see bank statements and statements from the fiscal sponsor. These should be made available immediately.

          • Urbaned

            @monjon22 Maybe there were no bank statements because the money came in before there was a system to process it? Maybe some of the money went to the Arab Spring or a beefsteak dinner.

            If you care so much, you should continue pursuing this, and that’s a good thing. However, I think it diverts our energy from enacting a new system.

            My thought on the matter: let’s move on with more transparency and accountability.

          • Justin Samuels

            @monjon what’s done is done, and frankly, with recent developments and shake ups, all this is a moot point.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            No Samuel, what’s done is not done. Once the money starts rolling in, these very same folks will be the intermediaries between the fiscal donor and the GA. The GA only gets what these folks decide to give it. They refuse to provide documentation of what us coming in so we don’t know what their cut is. We do k ow that they do not work– Christine Crowthers, William “Haywood” Carey and Pete Dutro

          • Justin Samuels

            So Monica, why don’t you turn them in to the authorities if you have all this knowledge of wrong doing?

      • Monica McLaughlin

        Bank statements exist. No one denies this. Darrell made deposits. The credit union hung a sign out front stating that OWS banked with them

      • Patrick Conway

        With just 10% of any assembly, council or working group membership needed to block reform, I can pretty much guarantee that we’re not going to get these simple reforms at all in OWS. And even if a miracle happens, and the first real reform of this system does manage to get implemented, the lack of organization and hierarchy OWS has embraced will work powerfully to prevent any enforcement of the reform whatsoever.

        This system is busted, my friends. But we’re all still here, and we all still care. Time to just let it die and build something better in its place. And I’ve got bad news for the anarchists: no more letting you guys decide our governance rules going forward. People who dislike governance shouldn’t be designing governance systems for anyone any more than people who dislike Italian food should be cooking spaghetti dinners.

        • Justin Samuels

          @psconway Good points, Patrick. Yes, the system is busted. And realistically, no major change or good idea has ever had 90% consensus. There are things that we agree to being good now, that were seen as horrible by large parts of the population.

          In terms of money management, this is something that some people are a lot better at than others. Some people have no concept of it. A GA that lets all people be equally, including someone who just walked of the street or who may be drunk, isn’t going to make wise decisions, period.

          So you’re right, its busted and over.

  24. Christine

    So the discussion at GA which this whole thing is theoretically supposed to be about has officially been moved to tonight. I will be there, along with other members of accounting.

    If you have things you want to address, please try to make it. I will make sure that during breakout groups we have copies of the report, along with bank statements and something showing the current balance in the account, available for anybody who is interested to see.

    It would be really, really great if we could refocus discussion here to talk about ideas for what to do with the remaining money, and figure out a fair, reasonable way to handle disbursements now that we cant meet our recurring budgets.

    • Sally Marks

      All the accounts?
      The three at Amalgamated, the one at the Credit bureau?

      • Christine

        Wow. You dont know what you’re talking about. These forums are like a weird fucking game of telephone, except we get to play with cops and provocateurs. FML.

        We have EXACTLY ONE bank account. Thats where all our money is. I will bring a statement to the GA.

        • Sally Marks

          Now Christine, it is a well know fact there are at least two at Amalgamated (I have seen TWO statements and have been told by several there was a third), with different account numbers, balances from the same period and one from that credit union in where ?Brooklyn?? When I saw the statements, on account had $99,999.99 (I assumed it was the bail fund) and the other had something like $170,000.00, perhaps more. I only remember the amount of the $99,999.99 because of the number.

          Just like others, you resort to profantity when faced with truths. It does not garner any faith when you do that.

        • Monica McLaughlin

          @sallyarks doesn’t know what she is talking about?! @christine, Sally is a donor. She knows very well what she is talking about as do I and all the others.

          Talking to you is like a weird fucking game of telephone except we get to play with crooks and liars. FML (whatever that means).

          • Christine

            well. currently we have one bank account. in amalgamated. thats it. i just plain dont know what else to tell you. its pretty clear to me that the only explanation is that you are working with outdated, false or misinterpreted information.

          • Sally Marks

            Monica, I think she may honestly not know (but may now have a suspcion). I hope she looked at the lnks I provided and realizes someone (or more) in Accounting has been taking advantage of her trust. It is fairly obvious there is at least three accounts, that cash has never been accounted for.

            @Christine, check with Darrell, he has seen multiple statements (as hove many on this website) as well as the information via the links I provided you. If in fact, you have been lied to @Christine, I feel very bad for you.

        • Sally Marks

          Yes, that is what I meant. I realized the error after I posted and had hoped peoples minds would read it as intended and not as written.
          I now credit bureaus are the companies that maintain records regarding credit worthiness. A gray haired moment! :O

    • Monica McLaughlin

      Are we talking bank statements starting in October.

    • Cynthia Price

      I am interested in the process, checks and balances. Basic Accounting procedures.

      DONATIONS:
      1. Donation comes in online: Who gets that money?
      2. How does it get transferred to the bank, daily, weekly?
      3. What about the ups or post office, i think there is an address to mail money, Who checks that and at what day and time
      ACCOUNTABILITY:
      For the above Donations, what are the Checks and balances to assure the donations are being recorded accurately and not being stolen

      EXPENSES:
      1. What is the routine basic acct for an Expense?
      2. How and where are those records kept and available to the public.
      3. How are the expenses sent to someoene keeping the books? Who is keeping our books.
      4. Who are the Accounting people approving expenses and is this done in a way that has standard bookkeeping checks and balances.

      • Sean K

        None of these have been answered. Movement is six fucking months old, and Finance can’t get its shit together. Either that, or you are hiding your deception. You know what REEKS of deception? Answers like this: “nope. not at all. but we’re definitely the only ones with the patience left to deal with everybody who wants to call us liars and thieves from behind the safety of a computer screen, when everybody in accounting is working their asses off every day to make sure that we make things legal and transparent.” <– yet there's not a single example of transparency.

        • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

          1) online donation > WePay > Alliance for Global Justice. 3.5% to WePay, 7% to AFGJ.

          2) 7 day hold then transfer to us, so daily with a 7 day delay is my understanding

          3) You mean the SIS mailing address? Not sure what address you mean.

          ACCOUNTABILITY – WePay and AFGJ should be providing a money trail. It’s hard if not totally impossible to cash out checks not made out in one’s name, so mailed in money should be fine assuming people know better than to send cash in the mail. People sending checks are free to send them certified mail or FedEx/UPS if they want an extra layer of paper trail. There are also 3 signers and it’s been said multiple times that people can just go see Christine or Ravi at GA if they want to see a statement.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            We do not know how much money came in. The fiscal sponsor will do tax filing only for donations of $250 or greater. Christine’s statements only show the balance dollar amount for a single account. They show no detail– what the money is spent on. This is a complete lack of accountability for donor dollars. Period.

    • Christine

      Again: i will bring bank statements to the GA to demonstrate that we actually have the amount of money we say we have.

      • sumumba

        I will say this about Christine…she has been VERY transparent about this…and she’s been coming to EVERY GA stating what we have with statements…

        • Monica McLaughlin

          @sumumba, ????? No @christine has not been very transparent about this. How is it that we scream our heads off on a daily basis and we didn’t know that she was there with the statements? It is because Christine always had the statements with her yesterday, but –oops, she doesn’t have them today.

        • Cynthia Price

          @sumumba she is not transparent. I tried in private, but christine chose to do it in public by ignoring my private requests to help her set up a fair system. its not about the past its what @christine refuses to do going forward. How is she the sole accounting to decide anyway?. Im done, on here, ill handle it at the G.A’s. i would have rather done it in privatre but she refuses so here we are.

      • Monica McLaughlin

        Again: I need more than a 2-hour notice. I have a paying J-O-B, @christine. Do you know what a paying “job” is Christine? Would you like me to explain to you what is is the majority of the 99% do all day long day after day after day. Do you want to know what it is we do all day that prevents us from hanging at 60 Wall with our peeps and ordering take out?

        • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

          So then @diceytroop or whoever does livetweet today will photo the docs and upload them to Twitter. It’s been SOP for any hardcopy doc brought to GA for a while.

          Stop crying so much about having a job. Lots of the people you talk down to on this site daily would probably like to have one.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            My point about the job is that going Christine and her boyfriend and Pete Dutro do NOT have jobs. What they do have is aces to donor funds. What they refuse to do is show us financial records. How do they manage to live in one if the mist expensive cities in the world without incomes?

          • Monica McLaughlin

            My point about a job is that going most of the 99% do have them. We cannot drop everything when Christine tells us that she will have the bank statements in 2the hours

        • Urbaned

          Monica, reflect on this. We know that not everyone in OWS has a job. Why pull that card? There are 400 1% in the world. The rest of us are 99%-ers. Thanks

          • image

            Silly Monica….you refuse to LOOK at financial records (FACT). Don’t you know each and every post you make repeating your not so carefully tailored slander is available here to be read?

            No one has played the boy friend card with you.
            No one has pointed out how your own income has fallen to the point where any source of funds you receive are welcome.
            In short, you have been hogging the use of imagery in such a piggish way with all the oinking you do that supports the obvious, the obvious support card, means of support, your means of obvious support as you troll away with being SO late trying to be help with slander.
            Can’t we try the race card, or religion, or class?
            Oh sure, make fun of the unemployed.
            Spin their wheels, our wheels….mean while pity the poor cows. Millions of cows….lost forever ….

        • image

          You didn’t know dear Monica a GA was scheduled?
          Or was it you simply never intended to attend the GA ?

          Maybe you should post your schedule, when you work, sleep, walk the dogs…. That way WE all can plan everything around you?

        • Christine

          Hi Monica. This thing about me and having a job has come up three times in the past couple hours on the forums. I try to be relatively civil with you when you ask about accounting, and even when you make accusations directed at me with regards to accounting.

          Do not EVER talk shit about my personal or professional life on the forums. You dont know the first thing about me, or what I do or have done to support myself. Kindly dont act like you do. Troll.

          • zed carlson

            Actually Monica who makes about $72,000/year is providing exposure every time she slanders, harasses, Etc….making herself ripe for being sued.

            Given her very public posts I would call it a “slam dunk” which even if she stops now and apologizes would still result in either a sizable cash award or settlement.

            Given her attacks on OWS’s integrity, her actions effect on donations , reputation and effectiveness any one of the hundreds of lawyers acting in ows defense previously pro bono, would be quite happy to assist yet again.

          • Justin Samuels

            Zed, perhaps you should contact those lawyers and fill them in on this slander……………..

          • Monica McLaughlin

            @Christine, pleaase refrain from name calling. It is anti – Occupy. I do suggest that you get a job rather than spend the donors dollars on yourself. They did not donate for this reason.

          • @CynPrice

            Signers on the Accounts should not have any decisions about Transparency or answer questions at Finance group.

          • Christine

            Monica, again, you have no fucking clue whether or not i have a job, or how a support myself. Among other things, you’ve never bothered to ask. This comment is the latest in a string of posts in which you have accused me and other members of accounting of stealing. You have NO evidence. If you did, the appropriate thing to do would be take it to the GA, which you have never done or shown any interest in doing. Therefore I will continue to say what I have always said- you’re a useless troll. In fact, in the past week, what with reacting to Pete’s address being posted by saying essentially ‘he’s stealing, we should use his address to go ‘thank him’ ‘ you’ve gone beyond useless troll and into the realm of flat out dangerous. You have clearly broken the principles of solidarity in numerous ways on numerous occasions. You are not a constructive part of this movement. You should not be allowed to post on the forums. And you will NOT continue to make baseless allegations about me or anyone else in accounting. Stop now.

  25. lp

    Liberysqga twitter is coming with only 12 people, just started (7:30) at Zucotti (not 60 Wall as listed here; someone has already complained that they went to the wrong place) Christine is there talking about these issues (per the twitter stream); would be great to also see it on livestream…

  26. Sean K

    You know what really sucks? I constantly fight the public perception of OWS being whiny, spoiled, entitled slackers looking for a free ride from society. I believed in the message, but any attempt at messaging and public outreach about ideas has been blocked by supposed “anarchists.” This thread is proof that they have been right and I have been wrong.

    I am telling everyone not to donate to OWS on every public forum I can find, until further notice. Thank you, infiltrators. You drained us dry. Hope you enjoyed your free ride and your penthouse rentals. I will steer all desires for funding to MRG. People like Sumumba, with a bum leg walking all over the five boroughs, going to every GA he can in the city… THOSE people deserve stipends for the *actual work* they do, not the spoiled, johnny-come-lately buddies of the inner circle. I never saw those hipsters in the park, but I guess you can just float in from Long Island and get a free metrocard if you “know somebody.”

    • Cynthia Price

      So true. They do block anythng that comes with actual changing the Govt and anything that middle class and 99% could be involved. They tell people “go to a group” then marginalize the groups and make decisions 5 nights a week as they seem to have no need to work to pay rent. I know they are not about changing the government, you never see anything from any of them, about changing our government, only blocking or ignoring or marginalizng that sttuff.

    • Justin Samuels

      Having taken the LIRR railroad recently, no one would take the LIRR into the city just to get a metrocard. A cheap LIRR roundtrip ticket is $16. People who live in LI typically have to drive to get from place to place anyway. Metrocards are all but useless to Long Islanders.

      • Cynthia Price

        Seriously justin, read the rest of it, very valid, i beleive lirr is a “metaphor” nevermind come to g.a. saturday and lets figure a way to do accounting right going forward. so we can spend our time instead to protest the governement..its why we are here, right?

  27. image

    If a million dollars (1,000,000) was spent in six months (6) and with 20/20 hindsight (20) (20) no one (1) with the 20/20 (20) (20) hindsight now admits they FAILED (0) to immediately take action when the money ($) started coming in.

    Since
    +1,000,000
    +6
    +20
    +20
    +1
    +20
    +20
    +0

    Adds up to a few complainers with nothing to offer but repeating the same half truths over and over and over and over
    And over

    Trying to grind down the few actually doing real “work” like accounting, rather than 20/2O hindsight bitching .

    “i” suggest we give in, create a internal process for burning the accused at the stake.

    It is after all an American tradition, and could easily result in the additional food from Kitchen for those cannibals among us, with little or no additional cost.

    • Cynthia Price

      I have repeadetly asked Accounting i could help them with standard accounting procedures over and over and over, cuz i can do it with my eyes closed. 1st in private emails as i know all this would happen and wanted to help them have it together berfore this issue came to a head. They dont want help and dont want to be transparent. They are lying and hiding stuff. I have proof

    • Cynthia Price

      Who are “they who does all the accounting work” ? I would love to help those who are overworked and offerd many times as it is clear they cant keep up and I can do bookkeeping with my eyes closed. The problem isnt the past, its money is being Stolen, lied about NOW. Your okay with that?
      .

      • image

        I’ll bite:
        When you attended the meetings of this working group, what happened exactly when you volunteered ?

        • Cynthia Price

          I did go to the accounting group and only 2 people were there and they gave me random numbers of what was spent that week and the numbers were way off. Its the Transparency group that started this thread, and even they cant get transparency. .

          • Justin Samuels

            Well Cynthia, the money is now all spent. The General fund is empty. Its done. I’m sure all the claims of corruption don’t endear people to donate when they come to the site, so you don’t have to worry about accounting now. Its a defunct working group. No money, no authority or power. And now that the General Fund has no money, ditto for the GA and Spokes…..The only true reason people listened to either body is because they distributed money.

  28. image

    Drain is result of donations falling off drastically after eviction , and now compounded by slanderers ( yep….that’s what it is ) telling people not to donate…..
    Brilliant stroke.
    ( APPLAUSE )

    • Cynthia Price

      How do you know we are not getting donations?. Do you know who gets the money that is donated online and/or where its going? Usually would be two people, not friends, for accurate reporting.

      • Justin Samuels

        Well, Cynthia, I would assume anyone who comes to this site sees major allegations put forward by you, Monica, amongst others. So why would they donate? It seems like some people have been working very hard to convince others not to donate.

        But you know what? I don’t care about the OWS money. I hope you and Monica continue your allegations of money mismanagement. I hope the general fund does go dry, and after this, no more money. I’d say close the bank accounts, remove the donate buttons of the NYCGA website. In fact, let this site go broke, and occupiers will just use twitter, facebook and e-mail.

        If Occupy is a worthwhile movement, we don’t need this money anyway. It doesn’t cost occupy money to put out its message across all the media platforms we have. Its up to the public and of course individuals to either accept this or reject this.

        • Sean K

          Money does help the movement. Money helps pay for peoples’ time. This movement got huge in short order. And with no hierarchy, communication has been a hodge podge, feel-around-in-the-dark. The GA became dysfunctional while Zuccotti was still occupied. Maybe it was the anarchists with foreign accents who stank of booze and demanded to burn the flag? I dunno.

          We can’t all be free-time volunteers or we lose some good thinkers, feelers, listeners, speakers, and workers. I’m not talking caviar, but a minor stipend – like $7/hr – would help someone who puts 20 or more hours a week into meetings and reports. Not only that, money is denied from projects for messaging, campaigns, trips to where candidates (and cameras) are, etc. Instead, it goes to food, metrocards( so they say?), housing, embezzlement, and direct action (I think I got that in order). Clearly nobody thought this was sustainable. Well, nobody sane.

          I don’t advise anyone to be a part of a movement that advocates transparency while is guilty of being opaque. I would characterize such a fundamental oxymoron between message and behavior to be psychopathic or cult-like.

          What OWS refuses to acknowledge was that at one time it was useful to spend on holding a park. Without holding a park, it is not useful to spend on them. It doesn’t further message, outreach, or inter-occupy contacts. So what did you THINK this movement was going to do? Because it’s had its chance.

          To me, the only question left to ask is, what will the transparent revolution be called? Wake me when it’s here.

          • Justin Samuels

            Sean K, I agree people who spend hours doing things such as reports, kitchen, tech ops and certain other projects that take up major time should have been paid a stipend. Any move to do so would have been blocked by the anarchists at the GA.

            So this is a movement that needs to fall apart under the current structure, and it more or less has. Good that the general fund is empty, and that the GA and spokes is defunct………..

  29. Lisa Rubenstein

    So going forward.
    Why don’t we (as an autonomous action) make a proposal to the GA for a new system of standard procedures for the accounting and transparency of all OWS finances.

    As far as accounting goes, there are only two things that happen – payments are made and payments are received – and there should be documents to support every transaction.

    At the close of each banking statement period, or when we have received our banking statements, would be a good time – like clockwork – to present that month’s financial activity. The information would include all cash in and cash out transactions substantiated with receipts and bank statements. Every penny accounted for.

    Every effort for transparency would deployed, meaning that our financial reports would be accessible to all of OWS through diverse technologies, including, in person at the GA, online, listserves, etc.
    I cannot imagine that anyone would find this idea objectionable.

    Also, I hope that those with knowledge in accounting will take this opportunity to start an affinity group to create a new accounting system and work with Tech Ops to create the digital technology for transparency.
    Just go for it – you don’t need permission.

    • sumumba

      I don’t think its necessary to continually name names in this movement…i feel the SYSTEMS and structures we set up that are to blame and then the LACK of education and shared values within those institutions,….as for Christine..I’ve known her for a while and can’t complain…i KNOW her heart is in the right place as is many others in Accounting, HOWEVER, i’ve just said she’s been at SEVERAL GA’s and stated what our balance is …and she answers any questions raised in those GA’s….as for all the other stuff..im not privy to that info…my focus (as some of u know) has been elsewhere..for those seeking TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY…i applaud your efforts…just hope we can go about it another way? just a thought

      • image

        thought not enough sumumba.
        time to call a spade a spade, and yes i am referring to monica…….
        ( now is that dark humor?)

        sumumba you are my brother.
        you claim to be of a race, while as you and i both know race is a concept reinforced in our culture here and now in the form of that which is percieved as racism.

        while one such as you or myself oppose racism, i have to point out that there is no such thing as race.

        as though there are four “races”?
        Red
        White
        Black
        Yellow

        how silly

        If anything there are seven:
        Red
        Orange
        Yellow
        Green
        Blue
        Indigo
        Violet

        therefore i will call a spade a spade…..
        and Monica is a MF AHL SOB Spade not be be dug……

        the question is……

        why do you still paint here as “white”?

        :D

        if humor weren’t convoluted then our brains would be smooth.

        • Justin Samuels

          People who try to deny that there is race are out of touch with reality. People do indeed perceive the physical differences such as skin color, hair texture, and facial features. They do indeed treat people differently because of it. When Trayvon Martin, a young black man, was going to his dad’s place, he looked suspicious to George Zimmerman in part because of his race (if he had been a white man Zimmerman wouldn’t have killed him). We have major issues with this, so its not really cute to try to say there is no race.

          Next you’re going to say there is no sex or no gender. No such thing as men or women!

          • notstevescher

            People who define people who see things differently then they do lack tolerance.

            When you state that a person holding a different view than yours is ”
            “out of touch with reality”, you are prejudging them.

            Therefore oddly enough you demonstrate the qualities of prejudice and intolerance when you behave so with your words.

            We have been taught that there is such a thing as “race”.

            You name three items used to define a person’s “race”: color,hair, and lopped nose shape, size, lip , eye lid construction into “facial” features.

            So, is a indigenous person from south east asia with thin lips, a large nose evolved due to a need for increased moisture , and dark skin a “black person “?

            DNA groups fall into more than racist intolerant prejudiced gangs or tribes of yellow,red,white,black,brown…..

            ” THEM”

            We are hard wired from before birth to identify potential enemies by perceiving their differences from our own group.

            So simplistic notions identify “them”.

            And we are TAUGHT how to identify THEM.

            We assign values to them.

            Meanwhile while there is racism, it is based on falsehoods, besides one that all members of one “race” are lazy,smart,good at math,good at hockey.

            There are no “races”.

            If you think there are you choose to ignore the function of DNA.

            So tell me Justin Samuels, WHAT “RACE” IS BARAK OBAMA?

            WHAT RACE IS A “JEW” ?

            We have “racism” because ignorant mother fucker asshole pigs exist.

            Not because there is any such thing as “race”.

            ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THERE IS SUCH A THING AS RACE PERPETUATES AN EVIL LIE.

            Do I make myself clear my fellow human brother Justin Samuels?

      • image

        thought not enough sumumba.
        time to call a spade a spade, and yes i am referring to monica…….
        ( now is that dark humor?)

        sumumba you are my brother.
        you claim to be of a race, while as you and i both know race is a concept reinforced in our culture here and now in the form of that which is percieved as racism.

        while one such as you or myself oppose racism, i have to point out that there is no such thing as race.

        as though there are four “races”?
        Red
        White
        Black
        Yellow

        how silly

        If anything there are seven:
        Red
        Orange
        Yellow
        Green
        Blue
        Indigo
        Violet

        therefore i will call a spade a spade…..
        and Monica is a MF AHL SOB Spade not be be dug……

        the question is……

        why do you still paint her as “white”?

        :D

        if humor weren’t convoluted then our brains would be smooth.

  30. vets74

    OMG……… LOL. “We are a revolution…” from MM.
    Helluva “we” there.
    ————————-
    Finally @Image gets it right:
    “Drain is result of donations falling off drastically after eviction , and now compounded by slanderers… telling people not to donate…..”
    ————————–
    To which I will add that this web site was sabotaged directly by two people in TechOps. The main donation-seeking Groups on this site were erased/deactivated/turned off based on a false claim that the 20-DEC-2011 GA voted to eliminate Groups that do not have meetings in New York, plus submitting membership lists, plus other requirements.

    Commons and Nonviolence had brought in hundreds of people and collected tens of thousands of dollars in donations, plus connecting with dozens of existing progressive organizations. They were wiped out and remain wiped out.

    Reactivating every single one of these Groups is a solid step forward if you want to jump-start donations. Summer is coming. You need money.

    Go where the money is. If you need to replace TechOps to keep the outreach Groups alive, then so be it. WordPress and BuddyPress are as simple as it gets for running a social web site. (This is one tiny web site compared to B2B and B2C sites. MySQL, the underlying database, is about 1/1,000th the maintenance complexity of commercial-installation Oracle.)

    Gold rules. Ultimately, this GA needs some money.

  31. Steve Scher

    regarding:”I will add that this web site was sabotaged directly by two people in TechOps”

    that seems unlikely, and without data or particulars it only becomes another “nail” being hammered into the cross, or coffin….whatever imagery floats your boat.

    The concept of meeting in nyc as a requirement for the committees of the nyc ga does not seem the result of seeking the means to sabotage, particularly in light of groups such as the 99%D.

    Now if you want to sabotage this website, issue a call to replace Tech Ops.

    oh….. that was just done…….

    what a coinkidents

    s

    • vets74

      Physical face-to-face meetings enable shills/infiltrators to photograph and identify the “leaders” who are running Groups. This type of function — cataloging OWS supporters — is a top priority both for NYPD and for FBI.

      Online meetings are far safer. No need exists whatsoever for OWS to expose its supporters to police surveillance. The demand for face-to-face meetings in New York only serves the interests of NYPD.

      In fact, TechOps agreed to online meetings for the Groups, but that agreement was scuttled without so much as sentence of justification. One can assume that NYPD’s infiltrator(s) saw these meetings as a major pay-off for their operation, not something to give up easily.

      MM and SS aren’t stupid people. They know exactly where the issues are with respect to right wing and police units attacking OWS. Pretending otherwise is to combine dissimulation with outright disinformation.

      As to TechOps, the “job” of supporting this site should go to 3 or 4 hours a week at max. Those involved in the scheme that has eliminated the major outreach/funding Groups should indeed be removed from participation.

      Same time, if NYCGA wants to raise money then NYCGA needs to get its act together for setting up a deal with an established 501(c) and/or getting the paperwork through to establish this status independently. There is no reason for NYCGA to continue on as before, dependent on Mr. Dutro and the Canadian anarchist deals. Same time, NYCGA will be well served to establish a legally useful membership definition: who are members, how does someone join, how are shills/infiltrators/saboteurs ejected.

      Raising money is not all that difficult. What’s not going to work are combos of passivity, “anarchy,” and useless complaining.

      BTW: does anyone in NYCGA outside of TechOps take the trouble to get a backup copy of the database for this nycga.net web site? Is this an item on the monthly routine? And if not, then please start doing it ASAP with a copy going to what is now called “OWS Deescalation.”

  32. image

    @Vets74 oh my…. you wrote :”Finally @Image gets it right:
    “Drain is result of donations falling off drastically after eviction , and now compounded by slanderers… telling people not to donate…..”
    ————————–
    To which I will add that this web site was sabotaged directly by two people ”

    Please do not add your internal sabotage statement to the obviousness of eviction causing drop off in donations, one thing has nothing to do with the other, and besides…you conclusion is incorrect as well as obviously illogical.

    Unless of course the two people caused the eviction.

    All this nail pounding….reminds me of something Sam Kinison once said, though not on the west coast.

    • vets74

      More than $100,000 had come in to OWS NYC from the people in the Groups that were eliminated. In the process of that sabotage, Groups that used resources were retained. Groups that acquired resources were eliminated.

      Agreement to allow online meetings was consensed, then that agreement was simply ignored as the resource acquisition Groups were erased/disabled wholesale.

      As you can understand, anyone out raising funds for OWS or setting up liaison relationships with existing community organizations will want to stay off the radars at NYPD and FBI. We’re not White Citizens Council. We’re not self-appointed Neighborhood Watch. We’re not Tea Party. So we’re targeted any time they get a chance.

      NYPD hired an amazing collection of thugs and liars for its infiltrators. If you get the same lie from somebody over and over and over, you know who’s paying them to tell it. Everybody knows that NYPD has them inside OWS — time to stop pretending anything else.

      • image

        Given that Echelon has existed since at least the early 1960′s, and it is designed to intercept any and all communications, including this one, and given the emphasis on use of non-human means to gather date ( cheaper, faster, no sick days) it stands to reason that any intel group government or otherwise, simply no longer needs “Physical face-to-face meetings enable shills/infiltrators to photograph and identify the “leaders” who are running Groups.”

        However what “they” do want is to give us the feeling of an fbi man behind every mailbox.
        “they” want to have us alter our behaviors.
        “they” want paranoia.
        *************************************************************
        Your statments are incorrect, such as:

        Online meetings are far safer. No need exists whatsoever for OWS to expose its supporters to police surveillance. The demand for face-to-face meetings in New York only serves the interests of NYPD.

        NO. EASY FOR THOSE WITH THE MEANS TO IDENTIFY WHO IS ACTUALLY TYPING. FOR EXAMPLE, OUR OWN PEOPLE USING LIMITED DATA CAN EASILY SEE THAT I AM TYPING FROM A IP ADDRESS ALSO USED BY OTHER “MEMBERS” OF THIS WEBSITE.

        ONLINE MEETINGS ARE NO “SAFER”. IN FACT THEY CAN BE HACKED, ALTERED IN WAYS THAT CAN ONLY BE DONE IN THE REAL WORLD BY THE USE OF CLOSE.

        ***************************************************************************************

        “Physical face-to-face meetings enable shills/infiltrators to photograph and identify the “leaders” who are running Groups. This type of function — cataloging OWS supporters — is a top priority both for NYPD and for FBI.”

        really?
        so tell us, and how did you come by this information?

        hehehehehehehehe

        i dare you to identify the source.
        any source.

        how do you know their top priority?

        do you sit in on meetings of the joint terrorism task force composed of city,state,federal and other operatives?
        hmmmm?????

        :D

        of course not.

        so please don’t create concerns or fears that are not helpful.

        hide in plain sight.

        its easy.

        really.

      • image

        oh yes…and regarding “NYPD hired an amazing collection of thugs and liars for its infiltrators” – you do have a source for this, right?
        I’m not saying its true or false, just in the real world of intel, which we too indulge in, it helps to corroborate information, to weigh it as true, false, and if neither, what weight to give it?

        I’d guess nypd does not hire thugs for example.
        I’d think they would fear a lawsuit down the road, and try for less obvious information gathering.
        Sometimes even the shoes some one wears gives them away. Sometimes people buy police equipment for their own use, like shoes….

        Now right wing groups, they might hire thugs.

        or even unprincipled left wing groups who prefer they dominate, and wish to kill off ows.

        its just not that simple.

  33. @CynPrice

    Wow, You want me to lie to my Friends and Family? Bank Statements were handed to me only during a group financial discussion tonight and I was told i couldnt leave the group to view them, and she was saying by asking to see them I was this horrible person. I couldnt concentrate oon them over the discussion. Wow so if you ask to see them, you are met with hostility and have someone breathing fire down your neck, saying your attacking them as you are viewing them, just cuz you asked to see them. You cant view them with a hostile, accusatory person, breathing fire down your neck and giving you evil eyes….cmon…kindergarten..i witnessed it tonight. Someone is hiding something, or there would not be so much anger about bank statements. You think I should hide that fact from my Family & Friends? I will say one more time. I would like to start over and lets just do it right. Why wont Christine quit, or accept help??? I have my friendly friendly emails and (very personal qualifications i emailed to her) she says were agressive. That is dishonest.

    • Justin Samuels

      Cynthia, let Christine and the rest of accounting preside over a defunct group. With no money, accounting has no importance. To tell you the truth, that ends any usefulness for the GA or Spokes as well. People really dealt with those bodies when they had spending proposals or requests.

      If accounting was so wrong, let them continue to implode. Why try to save a dying beast?

      • @CynPrice

        @Johndoe79 Justin, I think we made very small progress tonight, it only took from 6pm to 11:15pm. And the Transaprency portion of the Discussion is tabled to Tuesday’s G.A.
        This will I hope include Transaprency in future Donations to OWS. In other words, I agree with you 100%.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      @cynprice, this is so weird. It is not possible to believe that we are all in the same movement. It is so depressing.

  34. Lucy

    @CynPrice

    Ok. I can attest this is true: “Bank Statements were handed to me only during a group financial discussion tonight and I was told i couldnt leave the group to view them…”

    True. But here’s the thing, neither accounting or T&A trust each other. Both groups view each other as hostile. Both groups accuse each other as being threatening. I will say that although you and your group were willing to work with them, they were not open to having you, or one from your team work with them as they say they cannot because they wouldn’t feel comfortable because of the lack of trust, feeling unsafe, both groups say someone posted personal information on both Pete & Monica, but both group say that they were not personally responsible for the act committed.

    Both groups were high in emotion.

    My conclusion after seeing the dynamics is that neither group can work on this issue to any meaningful resolution as they are diametrically opposed in practically every way from what I can tell, all the while being exactly the same in their distrust of each other. It reminds me a lot of the Palestinian-Israeli peace talks; it will go on forever without end of hostility and as a matter of fact every interaction between the two groups only increases hostility.

    So. What to do. I think its time for a divorce; you know the two-state solution.

    • Lucy

      I really hate it when the site doesn’t allow one to edit ones post. So here is the ‘refined’ edit to the above:

      Here’s the thing, neither accounting nor T&A trust each other. Both groups view each other as hostile. Both groups accuse each other as being threatening. I will say that although you and your group were willing to work with accounting, they were not open to having you, or one from your team, work with them as they say they wouldn’t feel comfortable presumably because of the lack of trust and feeling threatened. Both groups claim someone posted personal information on both Pete & Monica but both groups say that they were not personally responsible for the act committed.

      Both groups were high in emotion.

      My conclusion after seeing the dynamics is that neither group can work on this issue to any meaningful end as they are diametrically opposed in practically every way from what I can tell, all the while being exactly the same in their distrust of each other. To pursue the issue further is to chase after wind. The whole meeting reminds me a lot of the Palestinian-Israeli peace talks; it will go on forever without end of hostility and as a matter of fact every interaction between the two groups only increases hostility.

      So.

      What to do.

      I think its time for a divorce, you know, the two-state solution.

      • Monica McLaughlin

        There was no A&T until a few months ago. When I got it going, the opaque accounting was the norm. It is not a matter of trust. The Accounting WG set up things in a manner that works well for them. They have no intention of changing things.

        Yes, it is time for a divorce.

        • Lucy

          Monica I was giving a synopsis of that last meeting, not a history of what’s been going on. And I was being general on purpose since I was outlining the group dynamics and not anyone specifically. From what I experienced do I think there is a problem with accounting? Yes.

          • Lucy

            You has stepped out when there was a discussion going on about having someone from T&A join Accounting and Accounting basically said no because they wouldn’t feel comfortable. So no there is no trust. They kept going on about how they felt threatened etc.

            If anyone from either group feels threatened then its fair to say there isn’t an atmosphere of trust or where cooperation can thrive.

    • Urbaned

      Very fascinating that high-schoolers read “Animal Farm” in the spring. All I can say is, reread, and do not repeat. Which “class” of “animal” are you? Who will ultimately get to sleep in the the beds (without sheets, of course!)? Is this really a question of trust, or misguided power? How will we ever focus on bringing down the 1% if all continue to fight with one another?

  35. @CynPrice

    This is the problem Lucy. They say that about anyone who tries to come near finance, fake tears and all. Tonight I realized its a Standard. Me and someone were laughing who were in finance tonight together at 6pm as around 10pm around discussion about $6K they wanted for Copying and when the guy pressed the OccuCopy guy for receipts for $8,000 they just spent he said “your attacking me” Im like wow, thats the card they use, he used fake tears too. I said to him “you didnt attack him, i have your back” and the other guy with me was laughing…all in finance do that!!! its a trick. Again, if you cant show bank statements without being Hostile, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE THE BANK STATEMENTS.

    Why, when Monica is a lawyer, and “they couldnt work with her” and i come along 3 months later, not even knowing her or about this situation “they cant work with me” Christine lied about “why she couldnt work with me” for every reason but the truth, that I will actually produce a transparent system. She attacked and lied first and I defended myself. Im bringing all my nice personal emails she lied and SLANDERED ME and I am a professional, to read Friday, im done with the b.s.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      If you look through the past posts on the Accounting WG, you will see many, many people, they could not work with. It is always something. And when they cannot find something, they pull out the “tone” card. You didn’t ask nicely enough.

  36. @CynPrice

    I am aghast that I was SLANDERED AND MY CHARACTER lied about as this could affect me professionally. It was told to many people many times and tonight that “my offers to help were accusatory, agressive and hostile” I only joined Transparency when I realized I was being blocked and just being a bookkeeper i could see the numbers werent right. I dont know how you could een believe someone who would lie that my offers to help were mean, when they were so naive, helpful and friendly.

  37. dennis dorgan

    Someone has the money, someone spent it, someone, and they, must be the people in charge of this movement which they say has no official leaders. So, if the money is gone, and those who controlled it cannot explain it, and attack anyone who complains about it, shows, the OWS has been abused by someone, who took a lot of money.
    Does anyone know who had that level of control over the money?
    Because they are the ones who should be slandered and accused, AS IT MUST BE THEIR FAULT.

    • Sean K

      autonomy means Finance gets gets to snort – sorry, SPEND – whatever they want.

      • @CynPrice

        And falsely accuse anyone who asks basic accounting questions as “attacking them and crying about it” and then falsely claiming they do answer them. If you dont want to answer Finance questions, dont do Finance. I repeated ten times tonight, lets not go in the past, lets go forward with something different. To that I was told “they didnt feel safe doing that” Um ok, neither does Halliburton.

      • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

        Sean, get proof or grow up. If something happened to the money fine, I think we’d all like that out in the open Why throw some extra bullshit allegation in the mix?

  38. Justin Samuels

    Well, Cynthia, there won’t be any new money coming in, lets just say accounting’s many opponents have made sure of that. I can just see a potential donor coming to this site, checking around, and seeing all the allegations of corruptions. In a sense, you’ve already beaten accounting by denying OWS new funds. Congradulate yourself. Or what else is it you intended to do? Not attacking you, seriously trying to understand why you think this is still an issue?

    • @CynPrice

      I think due to our efforts made tonight, There is a Transparency Proposal on for Tuesday night. This will help that any donors that check on where there money is going will bnot e called out to “attacking accounting with fake tears they are unsafe”

    • image

      presence = support which includes $
      eviction = loss of visibility + loss of central group focus= lower support including $

      all these posts = limited time and energy being used to type these posts

      so :” Join Us for the March to Commemorate the 6 Month Anniversary of the Mass Arrests on the Brooklyn Bridge, Sunday, April 1, 2:30pm.”

    • @CynPrice

      True Sean. Proposal to end the G.A’s and Spokes also on the table. I forget the date. I’m for 1 G.A. weekly that would hopefully include Actions to protest our Govt and expose our unfiar Corporate issues. Why OWS started in the first place.

    • vets74

      Killing off the GA is surely overkill. We can keep this simple:

      1. Define membership.

      2. Adopt Robert’s Rules of Order with a 2/3 vote requirement for item passage and a three-meetings-in-a-row requirement for anything that changes a structure.

      Changing voting rules is damn simple. 6th Graders understand the basics of RROO in ten minutes. Once membership is defined, a Treasury Committee can be voted with powers to set up an independent funding deal and eventually get oyur own 501(c) status.

      Bye-bye to the anarchists-Dutro-etc. era.

      Also, plainly, uneffing the resource acquisition Groups at this nycga.net web site is also essential. These are the people from all over the planet who have focused on helping NYCGA — those Groups are as much as not their prime connections. Same for doing liaisons with existing community organizations.

      The bullshit about physical “meetings” is NYPD fakery.

      • Steve Scher

        how odd to see a discussion about killing of the general assembly in a thread titled “Accounting Discussion”.

        anyone know the first rule in first aid?

        there are more things to not do, that’s a hint.

        essentially sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.
        oh sure, keep the person warm…but force fluids?
        prop them up?
        move them in any way?

        so now i see a out of breath ( huff…huff…huff…) rush to TO SOMETHING!!!!

        OMG !!

        We must SAVE OWS, NOW !!!!!!

        ******************************************

        hehehehehe….. :D

        why do anything?

        why not ” just get together with old friends and new friends for the March to Commemorate the 6 Month Anniversary of the Mass Arrests on the Brooklyn Bridge, Sunday, April 1, 2:30pm ????

        As for killing of the GA, spokes, working groups, or each other…….

        are you kidding?

        heheheheheheheh :D

        while this reality show beats the hell out of regular tv, it does cause folks to do the equivelant of tuning in another channel cause its SOOOOOO boring…

        unless of course we could maybe wager on who wins a contest like…..ummmmm…highest number of positive post points ( GO SUMUMBA !!!!) or highest negative points ( Where is Michael S Pollok whjen we really needed him :) )

        and this “The bullshit about physical “meetings” is NYPD fakery.” is dangerous, untrue, and quite frankly is very very interesting…….

        • DirekConek (aka Dallas)

          Interesting my shiny metal @$$. It’s people acting like spoiled kids because their favorite group couldn’t be bothered to have one meeting or conference call a week.

          See y’all Sunday! =)

  39. vets74

    ________________

    Pledge For Nonviolence

    1. As you prepare for Occupy Wall Street, please open yourself to life, love and the blessings of faith, hope, and charity.
    2. Refrain from violence of fist, tongue and heart.
    3. Walk and talk in the manner of love; for truth and love are the core of life, neither ambition nor the temptations of control.
    4. Sacrifice personal wishes that all might be free.
    5. Observe with friends, with false friends and with your foes the ordinary rules of courtesy.
    6. Perform regular service for others and the world.
    7. Pray or simply ask within to be moved so that all men and women might be free.
    8. Remember that nonviolence seeks Justice and Reconciliation – not victory.
    9. Strive to be in good spirits and in good health. We are the 99% and we must go in peace.
    ________________
    “Nine Principles” adapted from Dr. M.L.King, Jr., and M.K. Gandhi
    —————————-

    Let’s keep in mind how protest movements win these fights. The wild flailings of the past couple of weeks are about opposite to what Gandhi and King achieved.

    Nonviolence is the fulcrum. Discipline is the lever. Pulling together, a community can move the world.

    • Chris Black

      #5 is the most difficult, but considering the posting on these threads, the most beneficial too.

  40. Trish

    Seriously,

    Can any of them justify how they can afford to live in one of the MOST EXPENSIVE cities,

    in the world without a an Income (they are NOT NEW YORKERS).

    Are they wealthy, do they have trust funds, have they alloted themselves an income

    within autonomous status as an OWS working group?

    Seriously again, reform must start with this group…

    RELEASING ITSELF AS AN AUTONOMOUS WORKING GROUP, it needs serious oversight.

    Frankly the General Assembly would be negligent to not address this issue.

    WHAT WENT BEFORE, WENT BEFORE…THE GA RELIZES FISCAL REFORM IS NECESSARY…

    AND THAT CAN ONLY START WITH GETTING COMPLETE OVERSIGHT OF ITS RESOURCES.

    STAY TUNED FOR A FRIENDLY PROPOSAL…

  41. Trish

    Christine,

    Yes, you’re on the money…finace/Accounting modus operandi has been to…

    resort to hysterics, male and female (not a pretty thing).

    I mentioned to several people recently…that usually people handled money,

    seemed detached, impersonal, cold, (even if they were stealing you blind).

    And, if the second part of Sean recent proposal 3/24/2012 is to be taken at face value…

    He appears to slipped a forgive/forget, solidarity clause as a golden parachute for this WG?

    Can we really support anything, anyone, or any autonomous group which..

    which has slander, insulted, marginalized, and disparged the character of all those

    who inquired transparency …

    I, for one will give this serious thought.

    Trish

  42. Trish

    Christine,

    Yes, you’re on the money…finace/Accounting modus operandi has been to…

    resort to hysterics, male and female (not a pretty thing).

    I mentioned to several people recently…that usually people handled money,

    seemed detached, impersonal, cold, (even if they were stealing you blind).

    And, if the second part of Sean recent proposal 3/24/2012 is to be taken at face value…

    He appears to slipped a forgive/forget, solidarity clause as a golden parachute for this WG?

    Can we really support anything, anyone, or any autonomous group which..

    which has slander, insulted, marginalized, and disparged the character of all those

    who inquired about transparency …

    I, for one will give this serious thought.

    Trish

  43. Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

    Who… is this fiscal sponsor????? THEY… OBVIOUSLY KNOW who has the money…
    Clearly… the focus should be on….
    1) who is collecting the donations?????????????????
    2) Who is accounting for it all????? (collecting it)
    3) Who is charge of how it is spent.

    4) IF THOSE PEOPLE.. ARE THE ONES WHO SAY… “ADOPT NO LEADERS”…. THEN YOU ALL NEED TO WAKE UP…. as they are the leaders…. who control all the money… but remain un-known and free of blame, as they have taught everyone to think… there are no leaders to blame.

    Leadership…. means being responsible.
    A leaderless movement… can be led by anything… and no one gets blamed… WHICH IS LAME.

    IF THOSE WHO HAVE AND CONTROL THE MONEY…. do not want to be responsible for it… THEN THE MOVEMENT SHOULD ””FIRE”’ THEM…. and find better people who WILL TAKE RESPONSIBLITY.

    SIMPLE AS THAT.

    Does anyone know their names??? Contact info????

    -Mosheh Thezion

    • Lucy

      Well first of all I agree with you, but the people who control the money cannot be fired because they were never hired and they will always resort to “Well the GA approved the spending”. How the GA is rigged to work is another discussion altogether.

      • Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

        if it was put to a vote… TO MAKE THOSE IN CHARGE OF THE MONEY… RESPONSIBLE FOR IT… LIABLE… for its spending…
        IF IT WAS PUT TO A VOTE… to make it possible to replace them…. if they manage it all badly…
        then… it would pass…

        also… if a GA approve of the spending… why are they in charge of it?????

        Who elected them?????

        When????
        For what term????

        How did they get in charge????

        The fact that there are leaders… who refuse to take blame.. means… you need new leaders.

        The GA… could see this clearly.

  44. zedcarlson

    trish wrote:”Can any of them justify how they can afford to live in one of the MOST EXPENSIVE cities,”
    Guess where she got that from?
    Monica.
    Yeppers……

    So now that we know what she is, it’s only a matter of knowing…………….

    You would think slander is a violation of the guidelines here, but alas……

    of course Monica can lie to our own admins filing false reports……

    You know Monica as a lawyer once you remove yourself from the private domain to public, you can’t really put the genie back in the bottle.
    Since you are a lawyer you knew you gave out your “personal” information to of all things the newspaper of record, public record, The New York Times.

    Now having had that published, along with your photo( a lovely pose I’d say, good photographer the New York Times has….and having taken up two paragraphs as well….. you knew no “private” information was posted.

    So you slander others, file false reports, and why?

    why?

    You make $78,000/year and complain you don’t like what you do.

    Well, you’re not the only one, the question is do you get paid enough for the work you do here?

    Just asking……

  45. Lucy

    @Zedcarlson

    You can blame one or two people from T&A all you want, it only amounts to assigning fault at those who are pointing out the problem. At the end of the day its this that will stand out, not Monica or anyone else from T&A: Article from The Atlantic Wire, March 13th

    How Occupy Wall Street Spent $700,000 in Six Months

    Of the $737,000 or so Occupy Wall Street reports it has raised in donations since its inception nearly six months ago, it’s managed to spend or earmark more than $700,000 of that, according to its latest finance report. Amid the staples, copies, computers, and materials for its direct actions, it paid for tea, cigarettes, and lots of Metrocards. For the group that occupied Wall Street in the first place, a financial hangover is at hand.

    At its peak, Occupy had around $500,000 in the bank as donations poured in thanks to the national exposure of its Zuccotti Park encampment. Now, aside from the $89,029 that remains of its $100,000 bail fund, it has $30,537 to work with, according to last week’s report. So where did all that money go? A sampling of some of some of line items in the Occupy budget:

    $45,000 on Metrocards The movement moves by New York subway. (Though it’s a little hard to tally because some of those are reported as one of a few bundled expenses, such as $87 for “metrocards and earplugs” for the security detail on Nov. 9).

    $9,900 on legal expenses Almost all of that going to bail out activists arrested during Occupy actions.

    $6,000 on tea and herbs And do not forget the equipment to prepare them, as documented in expenditures slated for the Tea and Herbal and Herbalist working groups.

    $7,196 on laundry People living in the Zuccotti encampment needed clean drawers.

    $200 on tobacco and rolling papers Zuccotti Park had a Nic@Nite cigarette station.

    $2,970 on fire extinguishers These were purchased after the encampment was visited by fire inspectors at the end of October.

    $5,000 on pedal-powered generators The Fire Department seized the generators (which cost $2,185) any way. Eventually the city returned the machines.

    $3,000 to make puppets The props first appeared at the Halloween march, but have since been used for lots of actions since (including the one pictured above).

    $11,170 to churches Since early December, after police evicted the camp from Zuccotti park, Occupy has paid rent to churches housing displaced occupiers.

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/03/how-occupy-wall-street-spent-700000-six-months/49836/

    Since Monica nor anyone else from T&A were in control of the funds you cannot blame THAT on her. So much for using the money towards movement building to which it was intended.

    • zedcarlson

      Silly Lucy…accounting handled money based on decisions , votes, proposals .
      Your logic holds all accountants liable for the people,corporations, etc… They work for.

      That’s worse than “killing the messenger”.

      Accountants don’t decide, they keep books.

      Since you criticize the way money was spent,and your doing so based on information your accountants provided, you owe them a thank you.

      When these decisions were made, voted on at GA s, where were you?

      Did you stand aside after making a blocking motion?

      Get it?

      It’s not one or two people.

      It’s the OWS folks who decided at GAs.

      So did you oppose the proposals then?

  46. Lucy

    The bottom line is Monica gave her two cents. Accounting didn’t. From the same article:

    “Occupy’s accounting group declined to comment for this story, but from the chatter on its website not all appear pleased with the way it’s handled expenses. One named Monica McLaughlin wrote: “It was never the intent of the donors to support young able-bodied Americans. We should use the money to grow the movement. Period.”

    If I were considering donating to Occupy, I would notice that Accounting failed to to give an account of use of the money. Full stop. The money isn’t there’s, they are stewards of the money which was entrusted to them. They should have given a comment.

  47. @CynPrice

    I would love to start fundraising for OWS, but can’t till we have Standard Procedures in place. I have done lots of fundraisers, but only when I know their $$ is going to help those in need.

  48. Lucy

    @CynPrice

    But the money wasn’t donated for “those in need”. There are numerous org’s dedicated to “those in need”, OWS ISN’T an aid organization, its a social-political change movement that seemingly came out to fight the corporate-state alliance. If it isn’t focused on that then they didn’t understand their mandate.

    Its this same kind of thing that has given NGO’s a bad name. Using donor money for all sorts of unsustainable projects and internal expenses with only a trickle going towards the agenda they claim they had. Read “Lords of Poverty” by Graham Hancock, its all about that.

  49. Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

    It seems to me… the money raised is being used to maintain the protest… regardless of goals…
    and a protest movement without clear goals, has no foundation for fund raising.
    IF… the funding is to continue… there must be concise.. and clear… goals.
    very clear…..
    Otherwise.. why would people give???
    A political effort… must have clear cut political goals…
    I.. could help… if it was wanted…(and I would work for free.)

    I know… many will say.. the declaration has that… etc… but.. like most.. it has vague generalizations.. and the masses of the nation will not give their money for vague generalizations.. we get that from politicians.
    We expect more… from protesters.

  50. Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

    $6,000 on tea and herbs And do not forget the equipment to prepare them, as documented in expenditures slated for the Tea and Herbal and Herbalist working groups.

    $200 on tobacco and rolling papers Zuccotti Park had a Nic@Nite cigarette station.

    my god… what is wrong with this picture?????
    I’ll tell you…
    it is lame.. lame… lame… lame…

    Why would anyone give money if it supports the use of HERBS????? and provides TEA?????

    worst of all… Tobacco??????????????????????

    Gesh…

    Things like this… will crush the funding effort, as most… will not waste a dime.. if one penny.. if 1/10th of a penny goes to feed addicts, and those who want to get lit on caffine.

    I am sad now.

    -Mosheh Thezion

  51. Lucy

    @Mosheh

    The point is that people were not giving money to support a squatting occupation. Why? Because that is not going to change the corporate-alliance status quo. If you decide to engage in the squatting then you should be responsible for that oneself and the money should be used towards movement building. Why? Because its the multitudes that legitimizes the movement not the fringe. Occupying a public space in terms of living is a good tack to begin a movement but not in terms of sustaining one. People gave money because they thought it would be used to fight Wall street corruption, not house people who choose to live in a park.

  52. Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

    Lucy,
    Yes….

    Yet… Movement building… TO WHERE???? where is it moving.
    I myself… am running for President… to fix all of this.. and most people here have insulted me for it.
    I offer detailed plans.. to solve the problems… and most people who cannot even read it… insult me.

    I agree… the money should not be spent to support squatting in general.. as it solves nothing.
    But funding a protest movement… that has no direction.. is also a waste of money…

    At this point… the people.. must adopt… real direction.. real solution plans… ones that are unarguable, otherwise what is the point of protest?????
    Sure… we are all upset… but to get things done… WE MUST KNOW WHAT WE WANT TO GET DONE.. AND HOW..

    I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO HELP…. i take the insults… I will take the laughs… thats ok.

    What I do not understand is why there is so much resistance to forming any real front, WITH REAL SOLUTIONS.

    Without that front… front line.. cause… and purpose… as goals… then it will flounder.. as it is doing now.
    It makes me sad.

  53. Lucy

    @Mosheh

    Well yes I agree that there needs to be more discussion on where it is moving and what WG’s have plans to tackle the issue but that won’t happen at a GA where the sole concern is how to maintain a physical occupation. You are not the only one here facing resistance when you pose realistic solutions.

    Look at the list. $45,000 spent on Metrocards. Just doesn’t sound right. A monthly unlimited metro card costs $114 or something like that. I mean how many activists who are FULL TIME actually engaged in movement building etc are they anyway that you can spend that much money in six months on Metrocards? I don’t know but it just seems strange to me. They should have a list of all those who, because of the work they do, warrant a metro card but I bet that doesn’t even exist.

  54. Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

    over 6 months… 64 members… could waste 45,000 dollars… ARE THERE 64 ACTIVE LEADERS????
    and if they are not responsible leaders… then wow.. what a waste of money, especially if they have jobs.
    again… this massive waste… will prevent any real funding effort.
    I am sad.

    Does anyone know who the 64 are????? do they have contact info?????
    IF NOT… then they should be replaced.

    it says above…(at the top)

    “”"”"This week is the week: we dont have enough money to meet our recurring budgets. Accounting does not feel ok about spending the rest of our money on a ‘first come, first serve’ basis (ie, if kitchen found accounting first, they could take all the rest of the money and no one else would get any.)

    So, what we would like to do on Tuesday is reserve some time for a conversation about how to handle this, and hopefully from this discussion will come a proposal which we can reach consensus upon.”"”"”

    Revision History:

    March 24, 2012 at 5:48 pm by Brett Goldberg (displayed above)
    March 21, 2012 at 9:05 pm by Christina Daniel
    March 21, 2012 at 9:00 pm by Alia
    March 19, 2012 at 6:19 pm by Alia
    March 19, 2012 at 6:18 pm by Brett Goldberg

    They….. must be the ones…

    They ask for

    A means to handle the funding problem.

    I believe I could help… as it comes down to doing real fundraising… phone banking… collection boxes.. events… rallies … A FOOT RACE FOR REFORM…. etc…
    they have the means….
    They have the numbers…
    but such an effort needs accountable leaders…. who can be replaced when they fail.

    The nation is galvinized… but they must see something to donate too… something real.

    I offer my services.

    -Mosheh Thezion

  55. zedcarlson

    @luis the nation is not galvanized, but if you keep using OWS to push your own personal agenda, soliciting votes in violation of our apolitical guidelines you not only constantly show disrespect for OWS, but you play the part of the fool pretending you don’t know exactly what you are doing opposing OWS from within as the troll you always were and still are.

  56. Lucy

    @zedcarlson

    Most people who work cannot join a GA night after night so its those who physically occupied who made those decisions. Most of the people who have no interest in hostile behaviour stopped joining in on the GAs. On the issue of voting I will use a quote from Patrick’s post:

    “With just 10% of any assembly, council or working group membership needed to block reform, I can pretty much guarantee that we’re not going to get these simple reforms at all in OWS. And even if a miracle happens, and the first real reform of this system does manage to get implemented, the lack of organization and hierarchy OWS has embraced will work powerfully to prevent any enforcement of the reform whatsoever.”

    Accounting is responsible to their donors as well as the community and so I believe they should have commented on how they used the money. They should have been honest and tell the public that the money is mostly used to sustain those who occupy and it couldn’t go towards movement building or fund projects meant to challenge the corporate-state alliance because all anyone wants to do is occupy the park and protest issues willy-nilly. Then no one would be complaining see. That’s what you call ‘transparency’.

    • Lucy

      @Zed

      You see it all goes to tears when you lead people to believe this is all about the 99% and it turns out its all about a small click within the movement. Most people will not complain about all of this, they simply leave and never participate. I was at a WG like that last night, they are all part of the Occupy movement, serious folk who are genuinely interested and working towards change but they never come to this site and have completely stopped going to GAs. If the GA is a governing body of ‘the whole’ and yet a large majority find the process ineffective, marginalizing, physically dangerous or wha-thave-you then you just end up with something like a voting process where no one but a few participates. If you only have a few working towards their own self-interest or small group interest then you have done nothing but re-create the current status quo system everyone is fighting against. Which is fine, but then don’t use the name 99% as if you give a fart about the 99%, use something like “We are the Occupiers”.

    • zed carlson

      Is there a ga night after night?
      That would be 365 meetings a year, and as it is there aren’t enough people to hold a meeting with consensus when scheduled once or twice a week.
      I see you write about my giving a “fart”.
      Or someone.
      It’s mostly methane I believe, though a bit stinky.
      No big deal, right?

      By clique are you referring to the descendants politically of Sam Marcy?

      Just asking..
      z

  57. poc

    @lucy what I got from zed has nothing to do with what you’re now bringing up.
    All he said I think is that accounting or accountants have provided exactly the information that is referred to criticizing the decisions made by the ga.

    Monica says money was stolen and as evidence says no one can exist in the big apple unless they were dipping into the till.

    Monica tells the admins zed posted personal stuff when she knew that was a lie. Zed posted the information Monica herself gave to the new York times so anyone including zed could see her photo , her address.

    Monica posts how what Jack did posting personal info came from a public source, so Jack violated no guidelines .

    So Monica doesnt think the article she got published by the new York times with her address and photo and more isn’t public?

    What a hypocrite .

    The issue Lucy is not clicks or cliques to zed.
    That’s not what he posted about.

    You want to focus on a different topic?
    Fine.

    Just don’t expect others to be distracted to non-issues like “cliques”.

    You want to analyize cliques?
    Start with Monica’.s.

  58. Lucy

    @poc

    I made two comments, one concerning the whole accounting thing and the other directed to the assertion that accounting decisions are made by the GA. Hence the statement:

    “You see it all goes to tears when you lead people to believe this is all about the 99% and it turns out its all about a small clique within the movement. Most people will not complain about all of this, they simply leave and never participate. I was at a WG like that last night, they are all part of the Occupy movement, serious folk who are genuinely interested and working towards change but they never come to this site and have completely stopped going to GAs. If the GA is a governing body of ‘the whole’ and yet a large majority find the process ineffective, marginalizing, physically dangerous or wha-thave-you then you just end up with something like a voting process where no one but a few participates. If you only have a few working towards their own self-interest or small group interest then you have done nothing but re-create the current status quo system everyone is fighting against. Which is fine, but then don’t use the name 99% as if you give a fart about the 99%, use something like “We are the Occupiers”.”

  59. poc

    You raise several related but seperate points.
    I’m not aware that ows ny ever identified itself as “the 99 % “.
    Regardless of if ga now three months ago or six months ago were or were not good ,bad or indifferent, it is simply not true when Monica or anyone suggests an accounting group,person ,CPA or anyone does anything other than accounting. Accountants keep records,spreadsheets, number crunching, they are not the deciders.

  60. Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

    Zed,
    I am not soliciting votes… my campaign… is in the toilet…. ok?????
    my purpose here.. IS TO DISCUSS REAL SOLUTIONS…. why not argue with those… instead of just attacking me for having the balls to run for office and standing up to the power elite.
    IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ MY SITE… you would notice that my proposals would take all the oppressive debt based power away from the elite… restore constitutional standards… and set the people free of endless debt.

    Your insults have no meaning… unless you attack my policy proposals.
    that.. is all that matters… my campaign is at an end… so I do not need anyones vote, as its over.

    Stop.. making assumptions… as you know what that does.

  61. Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al- faraj Thezion

    To all, including Zed,
    LET ME BE CLEAR… .. my only purpose here is to try and help… to push for better ways.. and better policies to fight for… AS IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN… AND I AM NOT… THAT IS WHAT YOU ALL WANT.
    YOU WANT WALL STREET… TO CHANGE ITS WAYS.
    BUT… YOU MUST SAY HOW….. TELL THEM… WHAT YOU WANT CHANGED..,.. SPECIFICALLY.
    AND..
    IT MUST MAKE SENSE AND BE WORKABLE.

    I GET ATTACKED A LOT BY what seem like infiltrators… like Zed… who insult… make fun… and call me a troll.

    but notice… THEY DO NOT ARGUE WITH MY PROPOSALS.
    THEY ONLY INSULT ME… AND THAT SHOWS… CLEARLY… they have no argument.

    -Mosheh Thezion
    mosheh,org
    1-818-397-1352

  62. Sally Marks

    I donated to support the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/ and make changes. I did not donate to supply a roof, metro cards and meals to the homeless. There many organizations in NYC already doing just that. If I had wanted to support those organizations, I would of sent my donation dollars there (lest anyone thinks otherwise, I do donate to several programs in the city). Pretty simple and basic. Everyone is well aware that the GA expressed where to spend the money. It was ‘kids in an candy store’. However, there is the little dish “take a penny, leave a penny’. Only pennies were taken and none put in. Those with their hands on the cash, well, they had ‘incidentals’. Anyone that takes the time to look at the numbers will see they do not jibe.
    Because of how expenditures were done, how the cash was handled ‘fast and loose’, the donations plummeted.

    Mosheh, I do not agree with a lot of what you are fighting for, but I applaud the fact that you are fighting and working for what you believe in.