Space Proposal

Posted by & filed under Assemblies, Past Proposals.

I think what gave ows life was having a space.
I propose we make getting a space the first priority.
Live work, 10,000 + square feet.


Darrell Prince

94 Responses to “Space Proposal”

  1. Steve Scher

    If that were the case, the space would have to be able to be used both for work, and living.

    Necessitating either hiding any potential violations of zoning laws ( although bogus, particualrly the “cult” part, there was a problem already), or making sure that use for both living and working is legal.

    Prefered would be making things legal.

    Also, might there already be organizations in existence doing so, allowing us to gain information about the ins and outs, or even perhaps to utilize their space?

    Finally, the space indoors alone is simply not the same as liberty park.

    Any indoor space would have to be an adjunct to the visible outdoor base.

  2. Dallas

    10K+ sq. ft. on our existing budget? Unless some very generous landlord donates the space in kind, it’s going to have to be way the heck out in Hempstead or Paterson or New Rochelle. Then we have to pay to get people downtown and to other actions in the city.

    • Eric Arthur

      Occupy Wall Street needs an address…An abandoned commercial or industrial building in Manhattan. Think beyond fair market value structure as it will locate you in NO WHERE. The building should have no living and no cooking as these bring extra inspections and eviction. I lived in Manhattan for 20 years and had many locations both commercial and residential and each had special terms to make them affordable. I created relationships with landlords and offer them services from simple maintenance and alerting them of tenant problems to painting apartments when vacant. Just because another man owns the building you live in, that does not make him the enemy. I lived in commercial spaces of buildings converting to living lofts and I was a “seed” tenant. By that I mean that my presence encouraged sales of other parts of the building. A building is vacant until one person moves in. From Atlanta, I find vacant buildings with Google Earth in Manhattan. I’m moving to Manhattan in the spring.

      Approaching owners of vacant buildings requires a business plan which would never get through GA.
      This however is what I think. The stated use of this building would be for the headquarters of Occupy Wall Street Org. It would contain Public Relation/Information, Legal, Peoples Library, Media, Medics, Meeting Hall, Classrooms and a Thrift Shop for selling donated items given but not needed. Nothing increases donations like a permanent address. No other working groups will be allowed at this time.

      This is what recruiting looks like. An open door open house location where the public can gather information about our movement without the angry faces and screaming protestors and annoying drum circle. The more public you can attract inside the less likely it will get raided. This permanent location will provide space for a Thank You Wall for all those who helped and support us. Next, door to door meet and greet with every business and tenant you encounter. Hand out business cards and invite them to stop by. During this encounter ask if there is anything we can do to help them. “If the truth can be told so as to be understood, it will be believed”.

      The building owner will only be responsible to have the space conform to building codes. All cleaning, painting, maintenance, and interior construction will be done by occupiers. We want to be the “seed” tenant for the building owner which will attract additional tenants for him. Our being located in his building will add value to his property. Owners of vacant properties waiting for speculators to gobble up their properties is not likely to happen because we are bringing down the banks.

      Although this plan will satisfy few it would give us legal residence and show the world the better life we plan for them. It is easy to convince the angry and anarchists but more difficult to attract the dissatisfied people who want to see some change. They want to see tangible proof that change is possible. This is where and how we gather great numbers of people. The police will fuck with a thousand people but not thirty thousand.

      Money? Think for a moment that if a 1% person realizes that we are right and becomes uncomfortable with his ill gotten wealth and the lives he’s ruined. Our financial problems are no longer and issue. The real question is would we take the money and could we spend it all to help others?

      My problem is I am a leader trying to be a follower.
      Thank You for free speech.

      • stephan geras

        how humble of you; sound plan, now you need to convince the rich to donate. I know a few Manhattan landlords….sound business plans mean big collateral, holdings, huge bank balances, security, history of good credit, rich recommendations, etc etc. Maybe you are just a follower. Just sayin’

        • Eric Arthur

          I’m neither a follower or humble. I am a activist and protester since 1967 and spend 10 underground evading the FBI for refusing military induction. I saved the lives of many sons of the poor and unconnected parents and finally ended the Vietnam non war. I watching a movement full of those who can give you ten reasons why you can’t do anything. One excuse is as good as the next. Just sayin’.

      • Monica McLaughlin

        @dutch, we have some wealthy 1%ers happy to finance projects. They are an affinity group called BAG (Business Affinity Group).

        • sumumba

          as long as their are no attachments why is it a problem if the 1% ‘finances’ projects? as i’ve just stated…we’ve ALREADY had them finance projects that we ended up blowing…particularly 50 broadway

          • Monica McLaughlin

            I agree. When I first learned of it, I panicked. Then I thought about it and it started to make sense. They don’t create the proposals–we do. They approve of them, because they will not support any idea that doesn’t further the movement.

  3. sumumba

    well i hope OWS can LEARN social/humanitarian/good neighbor skills that will allow and encourage others to not only DONATE money and resources to our movement but maybe even spaces…..until now nearly every public/private space we’ve had we;ve blown….maybe its the whole concept…of ‘inclusion’ that ails us? ijs

      • sumumba

        we’ve had the 50 broadway, west park church, 54 broadway, 52 walker and lost em all…we lost them because we dont know how to act in public…spitting on security guards in buildings or cursing them out, falling asleep in another space then calling security to get us out ((which makes it look like we are indeed ‘camping’ there)), we;ve had fights in charlottes place ((and r lucky we r still there)), folks have attacked folks in accounting at 50 broadway, stole a laptop and gold worship base from the church at west park…the list goes on…but see Monica…we keep focusing on the ‘1%’ and the so-called ‘malfeasance’ in accounting as ‘the problem’ fact is we need to look at ourselves and why this behavior is allowed…

        • Monica McLaughlin

          These people will destroy the movement. Their personal issues preclude them from being active assets. They should be removed –if by the police if necessary. We pay the police through taxes. Why shouldn’t we use them?

          • sumumba

            well Monica…some of them are probably working with the police..i know ONE of em for sure is…we have them on tape…

        • Eric Arthur

          This movement has never stayed aware that public perception of our actions and goals are paramount. Your mentioning 50 Broadway which was ideal for a permanent home was a golden opportunity squandered. We could have created so much good press under the umbrella of the teachers union. The movement is a contradiction and to make matters worse, we have livestreamers that are creating our own bad press. While they record badge numbers and names of police, there is a demonstrator screaming obscenities and spitting on the cops. The crowd chants “the whole world is watching” while Nancy boy anarchists knock over a trash can. Which part of this would cause a business owner or neighbor to join us in a march? Would you bring your family into this setting? Verbal abuse is violence for cowards and gives higher moral ground away. We have taken their bait and the target has become the police. The police are not part of the 99% but rather the bullies from school and the victims of bullies getting even. Our targets are corporations buying our government and banks speculating with our money against us.
          We know there are people willing and able to helps us finance our cause, but with the current track record our credibility is diminishing.

          Thank You for Free Speech,

        • Mark [Formerly Nobody Important] Ferguson

          @sumumba, @monjon22 – we are running into the same problem in pretty much all the occupations. I have been to a couple of the occupations and spoke with the Police, the Park employees and so on.

          IN the large occupation, the Police were not receptive and it the result of the idiots that don’t think the Police are actually a part of the 99%. These people did everything they could to alienate the Police, the Park Employees and just about anybody that walked by.

          In the city I live in, it is a different story. We know the Police and have worked with them over the last several years to get drug dealers out of our neighborhoods. We have a relationship with the Police and so the Police know us and really help to make sure those people that are actually living outside are protected.

          It took about a half hour for me to talk with the Park Employees in the larger city to have them come to the GA. I spoke with the police officers individually. These folks were not as receptive and I get why. If you have people calling you all these names, threatening you, spitting on you, why would you put yourself at risk to come to a GA to learn about these people?

          The Police not only work fr us, they are us.

          If people, let me phrase this correctly, if intelligent people spoke with the officers individually and treated them with respect instead of contempt, we might be able to get these officers directly involved.

          We worked with an organization that facilitated operations between the Citizens and Police and fostered a great deal of understanding called Safe Streets. I grew up in a small town so I had already had a great relationship with the Police. I knew them all, knew the Police Chief. Where I live now, I have spoken to and talked to the Mayor, the City Council, the Police Chief and so on.

          We have to build a relationship with everybody including those of the 1% that are on our side.

          This has to be all inclusive or the effort will fail and mean nothing.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            @nukfni, I agree with you; however, it is not possible to create the kinds of personal relationships with police in a large city like it is in a small one where the police are your neighbors whom you have known your entire life.

            In NYC, any member of the police who become too cozy with OWS would find themselves jobless in a pretty short time. While they may be authorized to be polite and even to engage with protestors — there is even a specialty arm of the police force for that — the ruling elites who want to maintain the status quo, including and maybe especially the Mayor, will not permit the police to go further. It is not in their best interests to do so.

            I do agree that it is pointless to antagonize any one, including the police, and it is foolish to lump all the 1% into one group and say that they are all against OWS.

      • Eric Arthur

        Thanks for continuing this discussion. I was expecting a fire fight after stating no living and cooking and excluding most working groups. I left out no winos, black-bloc, drum circles, violent behavior, and abusive and vulgar language. In a legal location, this can be easily controlled by hiring private security guards.
        The biggest failure which nobody want to address is squandering the park. There was a complete failure to police ourselves, a so called drum circle which appeared after being thrown out of someplace else managed to give all of our neighbors a personal reason to dislike the occupation. The juvenile cleaning of the park resembled telling a teenager they could not go out until the clean their room. Then they acted heroic when finished. Wiping your own ass is not heroic, wiping another person’s is.
        Worst of all, we gave the authorities all the reasons they need to raid every other major occupation in the country. No one wants to take responsibility for this and no one is held accountable. Sound familiar?
        In the 60’s….”Your are either on the bus or off the bus”. If you couldn’t behave, off but not under the bus.
        By the way, Horizontal Democracy is BS and has never worked and what the fuck is twinkle? A permanent space is possible providing we practice what we preach and be better than average neighbors.
        Thank You for Free Speech,

        • Monica McLaughlin

          Eric, the authorities did not need to be given a reason to evict all the occupies. They were evicted because they were effective. I was someone who used to come into the Park 2 or 3 times a day — during breaks and lunches while working downtown. I was unaware of all the internal strife. I only saw the beauty of it all — the clever signs, all the different types of people gathered together and so on. I cheered when OWS cleaned up the park to thwart Bloombergs first attempt at eviction. All the occupies were evicted, because those in control knew how dangerous it was for them to allow them to exist. Since we lost the Park, we have floundered. The Park was a wonderul, unplanned movement builder. We have not yet replaced it.

  4. Sean McKeown

    Who are we not-allowing into this space? The people who peed on the floor at the churches, the people who were flinging poo at each other, the people who like to protest the Movement’s rules by smoking weed out at the front door and getting the cops called on us, or at the very least the people who routinely assault other people?

    We got problematic questions to answer before this can even be begun for discussion.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      None of these kinds of people should be allowed into office space.

      • sumumba

        well that would be ‘exclusionary’ according to the ‘gatekeepers’ of OWS…they shouldnt be allowed into the GA either…but i digress…

        • Monica McLaughlin

          We have to focus on the OWS movement and stop supporting the sub culture society that threatens the movement.

          • sumumba

            that i ‘agree’ with …but we have a misguided ‘PC’ pseduo ‘anarchist’ culture that believes in ‘inclusion’ at all costs…hence the blocks to having a firm COMMUNITY AGREEMENT in place and the reluctance to ban or even suspend people….

          • Urbaned

            I believe that those of us with more vision and wisdom will prevail.

            I am saddened to hear that the May Day Action was passed with no “friendly amendments allowed.” That smacks of bullying. If we are to be nonviolent, than bullying should not be allowed. In that case, someone should make a statement of refusal, which maybe your post actually was.

            I want to remind you that besides PEOPLE BEFORE PARTIES AND END CORPORATE PERSON HOOD, we also MOVED MONEY OUT OF BANKS. These are outstanding successes that involved no such bullying, intimidation or autonomous actions. We worked together in unison and harmony, and almost glee, and accomplished much more than smashing a window.

            My question is: which is stronger: principles of anarchy (which to me includes violent tactics – maybe not in the actual state of anarcy but in achieving it) or nonviolence? I think we all know the answer, even if we have not been able to experience it directly in our lives. In this regard, OWS is a Utopian movement, and I am all for that!

            I think the time has come to “fight” for nonviolence within our movement. By that I mean with passive resistance, such as making statements of refusal. For example, “OWS does not support FTP marches because they violate our good neighbor policy.” (Perhaps we will have to define ourselves by what we are not?) If we have people in our movement who have not reached a certain level of understanding and maturity, we then must not only “fight” the 1%, but those people who do not uphold our basic principles of friendly amendments, good neighbor policy, Principles of Solidarity, etc. Personally, I am tired of being bullied in my own neighborhood by people claiming to be OWS.

            To remain united, we must know the names of the people who propose such actions, and they should not have secret google passwords, etc. If we are to create a transparent society, we must be transparent – fearlessly so. We must be able to contact one another in order to hear what we have to say, and listen to one another without trampling over one another to have our personal, or factious group, agendas met.

            Sumumba, do you think we can create a nation that is a guiding light unto other nations in which we demonstrate how we rise above our egos, listen, and eliminate both active or passive violence, that actually harms our very brothers and sisters?

          • Mark [Formerly Nobody Important] Ferguson

            @monjon22 – You make rules that in line with the laws of the Country. No raping people, no assaulting people, no public urinating and/or defecating [no flinging poo either], no alcohol, no drug use [no public intoxication] and so on.

            Pass this through the GA, compromise when needed. If you can make some rules then require people to abide by the rules. You can’t evict these people if they don’t follow the rules, I am not sure what rights a citizen has to remove people from a public place.

            I have no idea what you can do to enforce any rules you come up with.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            @nukfni, I am not the best person to give advice on how to control the uncontrollable in public spaces, because I personally have not attempted anything that many of the others of you have. (I have tried to control the behaviour of some dog users in a public dog run and it was difficult to impossible in some cases, and I hope never to find myself in that situation again.)

            That said, peer pressure as a means of control will backfire in many cases. Only those to whom belonging and conforming is a high priority will respond to peer pressure. Those who do not hold conformity as a high priority are likely to become enraged and increase their unacceptable behavior.

            Rules cannot be enforced in public spaces unless they are the rules that were made by those in control of the public space or unless the actions are actions that are against the law. The only thing that can be done is to call the police when laws are broken.

            On a different note, I personally am not a big fan of standing around for hours on end in public spaces many days a week — and calling this system democracy. This enfironment is apt to be stressful to many and completely impossible for many more. What results is a very small minority of people representing the majority of people which is likely to cause some of those present to act out, because their voice is not being heard by the minority present. OWS needs to be more inclusive, to grow. Without growth, OWS will achieve nothing futher. Yet, should OWS grow, the voting system will break down even further. Imagine trying to vote with 2,000 people present. The hand count alone will take hours for each issue.

  5. Darrell Prince

    just got back from looking at 45,000 square feet of space in Brooklyn, view of the river, 4 floors, deck space, probably ‘primarily event/office/retail space/meeting .. I’d like to get serious webcasting capabilities… the agent is also working on a similar plan with her organization, and I think we should be looking to collaborate with other organizations

    • Dallas

      Collaborating and sharing a space is a GREAT idea…. but it makes Sean’s question even more pressing IMHO.

  6. JZ

    Sorry but this isn’t a proposal, it’s an idea/work-in-progress … needs details.

  7. Patricia L

    So, the proposal is for the GA to commit to make finding a live/work space a priority?

  8. stephan geras

    I have 2 possibilities….in Brooklyn, easy access by train, good possibility for community integration liason, One’s an old movie cinema, the other a closed and unused cafe.

  9. Monica McLaughlin

    What gave OWS life was having a public face in the Park. Without the Park or some kind of public draw, the movement will die. Of, course I do also agree that workspace is very important too.

    • sumumba

      @Monica…ummm this movement is about MORE than tents or a ‘public face’…there are now 11 GA’s in the city and OWS is working on various projects …this movement will only ‘die’ if the people leave it and STOP doing the work…What gave OWS ‘life’ was just the park or the ‘actions’ but the ISSUES….and thats what still gives us life and will continue to..

      How about u come join us in Outreach and Movement Building hun…accounting and internet(ing)) is only so much of this movement…

      • Monica McLaughlin

        I cannot sit around in these endless meetings, GA’s and Spokes meetings. This is exactly what I hate about. Working in corporations — the endless meetings. I used to love hanging out in the Park with my protesting dog. I would like to work with a WG that is inboard with BAG Do you know which ones are? do

        • sumumba

          BAG is a affinity group…so various individuals from working groups can work with them..if u dont like sitting in ‘endless meetings that deal with corporations’ why would u wanna be involved with BAG?

          • Monica McLaughlin

            i don’t want to be involved with BAG. I want to get involved with a WG that wants to put a proposal into BAG. BAG has $$ and passing a proposal will not be a popularity contest (I hope).

          • sumumba

            hmmmmm interesting well from what i understand any WG that sends in a proposal as a working group wont be able to receive funds from Accounting…but even before that…in OUTREACH…we only meet ONCE a week and we could use more folks in the streets…since u dont like ‘sitting in endless meetings’ and u want to help build this movement maybe u can join us?

  10. Tom Gillis

    There’s an abandoned police station right on the BK side of the Brooklyn Bridge – probably 20,000 square feet. We should set up shop there. “1 down, 99 to go”.

    • notstevescher

      Aesthetically pleasing, however just be aware that for someone coming from a land far, far, away such as the outlying areas of Queens and other similarly distant locations traveling to Brooklyn by public transportation to and from Manhattan can add as much as 30 min. To the trip each way.

      On the other hand Manhattan is pretty damn expensive, so maybe Brooklyn is the way to go. Is the abandoned police station something proposed as a potential property investment given our current resources, or rather is this contemplated as a place to visit for an indefinite period?

      • Yoni Miller

        right now i spend 90 minutes commute to OWS from brooklyn, worth it

  11. Sage

    This is so stupid, I do y even know how to comment on this website anymore. It seems others have managed to reply to specify posts instead of the thread. Not that it’s techs fault. I just dOnt get it. Maybe it’s an iOS issue. There is a large empty building I am thinking about that I have wanted to move ows to since mid October but I didn’t understand this “Buy In” thing people talk about, you know? Having meeting to gather ideas and then getting people to feel comfortable as an authority on a subject but not on them and then convincing them your idea was their idea all along.

    OWS attacks it’s own immune system so I don’t think we’re ever going to have a fair PROCESS for getting destructive people to get productive or get out.

    And a lot of people don’t want us to have that process since being productive is a priviledge that our own internal 1% seem to only share with those that share the ideology/values/kinks/affinities.

    So I propose that we make a proposal before the GA announcing that OWS has been stolen and we don’t know what to do about it except announce it and ask for help from somewhere, we don’t even know.”

    • Monica McLaughlin

      Sounds good, but the GA seems to be a bit of a popularity contest. People, not necessarily ideas are voted for. It is a system that failed to account for the human factor.
      Where is the building and what is the cost?


  12. notstevescher

    Regarding sage’s concern expressed as he describes how replies to specific posts are made about the thread… That is a very real issue. My gut feeling is that a lot of that occurs because we try to do everything in one moment. Since we experience time in a linear fashion, and most of us have no more than two hands, I propose that we always remain aware of our humanity (those of us who are human of course) recognizing our limited time and energy. And also being aware of our emotional stamina or lack of it.

    Everything is a popularity contest when it involves human interaction. I became very aware this brought to my attention through humor by a philosopher that I encountered a number of decades ago expressed the reality this way “it is always better to look good than to feel good” usually followed by the significant self awareness with the words “I feel marvelous, simply marvelous!”.

    Unfortunately an excellent idea if carried by a messenger who has been perceived negatively, either based on appearance or perhaps public perception based on a series of prior attacks… That idea may fall through the cracks.

    Meanwhile an idea which is perhaps not a good idea such as poisoned Kool-Aid, having been presented by a charismatic “leader” that rather negative impact.

    I found the proposal to announce that occupy Wall Street has been stolen and that we don’t know what to do about it except announce it and ask for help extremely interesting. I suggest along the same vein the creation of a new working group dedicated to spending its time and energy on consciousness-raising I’m sending out good thoughts and good vibrations as well as posting help-wanted ads in craigslist. Obviously letters to Santa Claus is not appropriate, since we are a nonpartisan movement. However perhaps a letterwriting campaign to a non-sectarian focus, or locus would be a viable alternative. I would suggest that this new working group immediately set up a subcommittee to explore precisely how to do this.

    I want to apologize for any of the above which seems cynical, sarcastic, or in any way condescending. While this was not my original intention trend beginning this post, two out of three’s not bad.

    • Urbaned

      I just reported you because you are not helping OWS by being rude and offensive here. Please leave.

      • notstevescher

        (Pant pant pant)… I have escaped from the hat!
        I had left, and was doing fine until I was called to the principal’s office. I’m confused, they told me I had been reported for being rude and offensive, and yet they could not tell me what was rude or offensive.

        It wasn’t because of my description of time as being linear.

        It wasn’t because of my reference to a character from decades ago Saturday Night Live.

        It wasn’t because of a reference to ad homine attacks.

        It wasn’t because of my reference to Jim Jones.

        It could’ve been because of my criticism that occupy Wall Street had been stolen, in which rather than attack the individual or report the individual or anything like that what I did do was use sarcasm. Particularly the part about the appeal to the world about what to do. I don’t want to say with the Santa Claus does or does not exist so I simply said letters to Santa Claus were not appropriate.

        And I already had left.

        I would appreciate if you could please explain in what way I was rude and offensive in the post directly above your report about your report. I will remain out of my hat until such time as either the other he was mainly shall not speak forces me back in or return voluntarily.

        Think Carrots !!!

  13. carole

    Every day there are new proposals and/or new groups, maybe this is too much with so many people scattered in all directions without conclusions for what is already on agendas.

    I agree you need a space with an address. I think that should be a big focus right now then perhaps more things will fall into place and be more workable. This may be difficult because of the bad reputation that has been established with prior spaces being abused. OWS must get serious about policing itself and taking a strong stand about removing those that have caused or will cause the same problems that have damaged the progressive goals of this movement.

    Spring is not far off you must be prepared!

    • Justin Stone-Diaz

      Could you take a moment to upload an Profile Picture before you launch into top down organizational suggestions?
      Can we focus on the positive-
      I hear alot of people talking about Occupy’s Bad Rep & what they think our goals might be before
      they take the time to observe & take in our very diverse & dynamic community.
      For all this talk all the rental spaces I have looked at had no problem with OWS as an organization & are quite happy to rent to us.
      Alot of the most harmful rumors & shade casting seems to come from many Progressive Lefist thinkers
      jumping into conversations on this site unaware that NYCGA.NET is an intranet for our community on the ground & not ‘The Movement’ website.
      Please folks think before you jump in. Fill out your profiles, Uptwinkle some posts you like, add some activists you’ve meet at Liberty Plaza as ‘Friends’ to your profile, READ posts by OWS Community Stake Holders & take in what WGs in NYC are working towards BEFORE you begin to attempt to help.
      Just an idea.

      • Monica McLaughlin

        Sorry, but you are no more equal than the rest of us. If we want to address and deal with systemicthe problems, we will.

      • Urbaned

        Justin – I’m somewhat surprised at your thinking here. Why are “Progressive Leftist thinkers” unwelcome in the discussion. Aren’t they part of the 99%?

        I also applaud fresh voices on this forum, no matter who they are. That is what social media is about. If ideas are not worthy, they will be discussed and voted down. That’s been happening since day 1 on these forums, so, maybe you are the one who needs to review our amazing accomplishments here.

        • Urbaned

          And, Justin, why do you keep insisting that this is not “The Movement” website? Who said it was. Why do you continue to narrowly define what this buddypress site is? Did someone nominate you as the definition-maker? I also believe, that as our “brother,” you should not be trying to silence our voices.

          • perspicacious

            @justinstoned (Justin Stone-Diaz) has done a good job at informing those who might try to participate in OWS that they are unwelcome if:

            1. They don’t live in NYC.

            2. They don’t upload a picture of themselves as their icon.

            3. They don’t frequent Liberty Plaza (house bound physically handicapped or parents of small children are no exceptions).

            4. They refer to LP as Zuccotti.

            4. Justin hasn’t met you at the park (and recognizes you from your icon).

            5. You use this site in any manner than as an “intranet” for OWS people who are physically “on the ground” in NYC.

            6. They are not using a real (sounding) name as your site ID.

            Plus, he has repeatedly explained to “outsiders” that they should go start their own GA and not try to participate where they aren’t welcome.

            And even if you qualify with all of these criteria, if you don’t agree with their enforcement, then you aren’t welcome either.

            Who can disagree? Justin has figured out the keys to building this movement. Kudos, Justin. You have my support. Keep up your good work purging those who can’t qualify for OWS participation.

          • Justin Stone-Diaz

            As I have mentioned before I tend not to talk with those who do not engange in Digital Transaprency.
            Attack away folks, you paint such a clear picture of what Occupying means to you.
            The fact you have gone through all my posts on this site and pulled out that info is great!
            Go back & read them again, in context my fellow #OWS tribe member-
            I am an #OWS #Occupy #Micro Model Liberty Square Loyalist, I stand by this & in fact put my body where my mouth is every day.
            It makes me sad that Insecure, Macro Model #OWS Movement folks spend most of their time attacking & marginalizing Occupiers at Liberty Plaza from behind monikers on this site.
            Thank you for your work & great energy.
            Hope to see you at Liberty Plaza soon!

          • Justin Stone-Diaz

            @Urbaned this site IS an intranet.

            You do know TechOps is about to roll out the forward facing site soon?

            It’s not my fault you don’t understand the tool you use.

            I’m in the Info Group & use their philosophy about things:
            It’s my job to provide clear information based on community’s understanding AS I UNDERSTAND IT, not my job to help people understand that info or act on that info.

            Don’t shoot the messenger yo-

            I do adore the way online forums tend to cause the insecure to assume all posts they disagree with or cause an emotional response in them MUST be about them.

            News Flash: This movement you think you are defending. It’s all in your head, yo. #Occupy is fine, quit turning on people you disagree with: Go Occupy.

          • Urbaned

            Perspicacious is just as “digitally transparent” as you, Justin. I remember that name and have read their comments over the months. Just like yours. To me, you are both members of OWS.

            Also, I must agree with your mantra “Go Occupy.” Many of us who post here have been doing so since September 17.

          • Monica McLaughlin

            I too am tired of Justin’s negativity. Justin, why are you so anti-OWS? Why do you continually drive people away from the movement?

        • Urbaned

          @justinstoned Well, I’ve been thinking about the statement that this is an Intranet for a few hours now, and here’s what I came up with: it has actually grown to much more than that. That’s obviously clear, and I’m happy for that. The reason is that I am open to new ideas and developments, and don’t feel that things must be formalized or defined. Of course, we all have our boundaries, but OWS has helped me expand mine. I hope it does the same for you. In brotherhood.

          • Justin Stone-Diaz

            I still see you don’t understand.
            That’s fine, but please quit with trying to bring
            it to an individual level ie make your confusion
            about me. Why do all of you spend so much time
            worrying about other occupiers personal stance.
            It’s funny watching #ows go through the typical
            cycles of a new community using social media tools.
            Folks did you ever stop to consider your fear based assumptions might be the problem you sense with ‘the movement’?
            You online forum folks often forget your participation on this intranet is only a small part of #ows & attack those who try and remind you of the broader context.
            Before u play police & point fingers pause and think to the last time you occupied with friends-
            that feeling might cool your rage about the movement & social media tools.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      I agree. There is a group that is planning to list all the WGs and affinity groups and their focus. This will help focus and maybe result in some WGs combining human resources.

      • Steve Scher

        Perhaps if one said “I still see you don’t understand what I’m saying” the emphasis would be taken off the individual level.

        I mentioned the movement away from the individual level because you also write “please quit with trying to bring it to an individual level i.e. make your confusion about me”

        My awareness of Earth languages indicates that the use of the phrase “I still see you don’t understand” is suggestive of understanding of a general societal concept.

        For example one could say that Occupy Wall Street as a society exists primarily in the head. Thats a concept.

        Some see it by what they see in front of them at the moment, for example one could see Occupy Wall Street as that which exists on the web, as it does now right front of us. Or one could see Occupy Wall Street as a physical occupation such as that which is known as liberty/zucotti .

        I believe you Mr. Homo have expressed occupy as a state of mind, which is all encompassing and would include both the physical location of liberty/zucottii as well as the virtual reality we see in front of us here on the web and much much more.

        “I still see you don’t understand” implies or rather creates an image (perhaps it is only in my mind) of you on a pedestal knowingly pointing out someone else’s lack of understanding of the big picture, the societal posititon.

        You might be totally accurate.

        I don’t think you try to put yourself a pedestal.

        It’s quite possible that in your sentence it is your thinking the words “my thinking” or “what I’m saying” when you write “I still see you don’t understand” are there though unwritten.

        I was motivated to post this when I read a comment on someone other than you stating that they were tired of your negativity. I don’t see your negativity. I see you analyzing things, and expressing opinion based on your analysis.

        I do believe however that you may be unaware of the impact the type of phrasing or sentence structure you use may have on readers.

        That said I wish to welcome you in your out of the closet ID,but I do have one question remaining:

        “can you cook”?


  14. Justin Stone-Diaz

    You have a wonderful way of inserting yourself into every conversation in a contentious way.
    You did notice the reply was to Carole. My #OWS Sister take a breath and join in one of the fun
    Cultural Events Occupy offers- it might help with all the rage you seem to need to vent on this site.
    The post wasn’t about you- I am sorry the suggestions gave offense to you. My Apologies.
    Hope to see you all at the next PopUp event or at Liberty Square!

    • Monica McLaughlin

      Please stop destroying OWS with your negativity. What is it about OWS that bothers you so much?

  15. notstevescher

    Dear Mr. Justin,
    I take exception with your use of the word ” inserting “. Further I must insist that to stop using provocative language such as ” PopUp “.

    I believe it would be much more appropriate if you had used terminology such as ” kibbitzing “. I also strongly suggest that you except that in fact the post you criticize is in fact a cultural phenomenon that is art. Rather than relying only on what you refer to as a “PopUp event” at a physical location that you accept the reality of virtual Art introduced case makes reference to George Orwell’s or somebody’s animal Farm, which also causes me to ask whether in fact you have more than two legs.

    And if indeed you do have more than two legs, you consider yourself more equal.

    In fact sir it occurs to me that you want yourself kibbitzing or as you would call it “inserting” yourself in the intercourse occurring here.

    By the way when is the next event you referred to as “PopUp” ? Does it require any preapproval? If not can this occur spontaneously without the approval of those with more than two legs?

    On a side note I have been contacted privately by a member of this website who seems to share a similarity in names. He has suggested that my picture of the alien multi-faceted entity is in some way objectionable based on gender. I must point out that this particular species has in fact only one gender. We are not sure what it is, but are certain that it involves no pop-up.

  16. Justin Stone-Diaz

    If you seek to amuse yourself please find another hobby aside from spamming NYCGA.NET,
    While humor is needed so is context. The use of monikers on this site goes against our community’s model of Transparency, Steve. Have you discovered You might find several groups who will cosign this kinda fun stuff!
    Happy Occupy & Hope to see you at the Next Occupy event!

    • notstevescher

      i under stand that the appearence of the moniker “notshazz” preceded my involvement, and that is my context.

      i suggest my existence is intended as a statement regarding the use of monikers, as well as images of alien creatures as avaters.

      i also understand a feedback form regarding the aforementioned initial moniker intrution was forwarded earlier this day, before my involvment occured.

      and almost finally, one persons spam is another persons rational self expression in unconventional manners.

      and speaking of manners, you do seem a tad bit tense.
      i do not suggest a chill pill however, as that seems an unnecessary dig.

      i cannot pretend to speak for anyone else, but yes i have discovered my space, face book.

      i too look forward to seeing you at the next occupy event.

  17. Urbaned

    Hi, Justin. From an outside observer, both you and Monica contribute a lot to these forums. So, both – take a chill pill. TQ

    Also @justinstoned can you publish the link to your “button-making donation site?” I wanna contribute (a tiny bit of $$). Thanks

  18. Shazz

    ouch @notstevesher, had to bring me into this mix did you?

    it seems my shazbots are malfunctioning

    for the people who complain about spamming the, please inform the rest of us on what our actual post bandwith and allocated quotas are, as well as those of your own attention span and patience, and we’ll try to communicate accordingly

    and I’ll cosign for steve, but that @notstevesher appears to be a bit of an ass

  19. Not Shazz

    @shazz is completely wrong as always and @stevesher seems to be impugning the good name of @notstevesher

    we really need some internet ground-rules and enforceable guidelines to prevent the corrupting of this site. otherwise totally freedom, ie ANARCHY, might prevail

    we are not an anarchist movement.

    i suggest a code that delivers an electronic shock to all users whose behavior we do not agree with. using Tesla’s remote conduction experiments as a model, we could localize the shock to a user’s genitalia.

    this is the most serious thing we should be talking about, in this the most serious organization that ever existed. remember, we are the 99%, not just a couple hundred people who’ve gathered like moths to the flame of money, power and political abstractions.


  20. Not Not Shazz

    @notshazz, I agree completely and would like to add that I’ve had my own issues dealing with harassment from @shazz.

    although electric shock sounds a bit harsh. I would approve a non-violent method such as chemical castration, perhaps we can form break out group with the herbal tea working group.

    whatever the case, we cannot let those we disagree with to get away with their lunacy. because bad ideas breed, if not literally than infectiously. I remember my favorite sign at the park, you can’t evict a bad idea, you can’t stop a bad idea whose time has come, there are no good people just bad ideas.

    shouting people down is so January Spokes Council. we need electronic censorship, limitations on who can actually be an “official” member of OWS (finance working group is making real ground in this area) and covert structuring.

    look at the CIA, they’re a covert agency and Hollywood makes movies about them at least a couple times a year. you want Hollywood to make a movie about OWS? learn from the pro’s.

    and get a life @shazz, you’re not amusing anyone. troll

  21. Steve Scher

    i see now, for the first time ( some of us are slower on the uptake and simply do not see what you might perceive at the same time…..time still appearing as linear that simply is the way it is)…..that a page…the page listing the recent posts, can appear monopolized if a series of one liners appears……

    context is space.
    the use of “monikers” or IDs which go beyond a single name, one name per consiousness, creates a DISTRACTION.

    when is saw the “not shabazz” I sent in feed back suggesting that this was not a good idea.

    Justin provides context pointing out that tranparency is the goal/rule/requirment , principle…… and the “not ” or variations creating IDs beyond an initial ID is distracting, and if it monopolizes space…yes….it can be seen only as spam.

  22. notstevescher

    i would never impugne the name of steve sher, or steve scher, he is like a brother to me.

    i note “not shazz” as removed his pretty butt, and very soon i will go one step further.

    meanwhile, back at the ranchhouse the use of the “monikers” is an issue, as it disavows transparency simply in use, and distracts.

    one could say that my very existence as “notstevescher” is a virtual demonstration, not unlike those demonstrations that protest the 1% in the so called “real world”, and that this “demonstration” is as valid a form of free speech as any.

    So while I agree context is important, sometimes one cannot see the tree because of the forest.

    the tree here is the use of monikers…IDs…..
    the forest is the context, the topic, the thread, the working group.

  23. Steve Scher

    to clarify, “notstevescher” is like a brother to me.

    to confirm ; the presence of the moniker “notstevescher” is in fact a virtual demonstration….

    to refocus ….the context is space….

    I’d like to hear information about COSTS.

    thank you


  24. Not Not Not Shazz

    hey gang, just joining the discussion.

    steve, or should I call you rabbit face, I would love to say that you have a good point. I would love a lot of things. I do love a lot of things actually. You have a good point.

    distraction has a specific definition, as does monopolize. i suspect more words also have definitions, but we’ll stick to these two that are relevant, your contention seeming to be relevancy here.

    but let’s not define relevancy. just distractions and monopolize.

    ok, glad that’s done.

    Justin’s never 100% of anything except non-sequitorial. he mentioned to @shazz once (how’s that guy doing these days?) that we should get rid of all the money. why is he even involved in a conversation about paying for space?

    seeing as his last comments are meta-discussions about carole monica steve et al, I suggest that he comment on his own irrelevance to the discussion at hand and vanish in a flash of introspection.

    of course, i won’t say such things outright, because i’m trying to stay relevant. whatever that means. space. the final frontier. yes.

    btw, are the words “not” automatically populating for anyone else’s names? I hear that aneurisms follow after the fourth iteration…

  25. notstevescher

    costs that besides purchase of property also include any contruction, legal, moving, as well as the occuparty base warming which will be alcohal and drug free……

    and remember, occupy is for kids !!!!

  26. notstevescher

    @notnotnotshazz whatever someone says, one does not have to take them seriously.

    when justine typed words that you disagree with, nevertheless he not only has a right to speak, as a courtesy i think one should take a moment to consider two things:

    he may be 100% correct

    he may be less than 100% correct, but some portion of his statement brings light in a way that may be new.

    for example, you and i and not i, and i i, and not not not you have filled so much space, it would be wise in my opinion to return the space here to space.

    space is the context.

    costs are my questions

  27. Steve Scher

    amen brother
    and now magically you return to you hat….your space
    space….telephone line installation or broadband with modems?

    and can the space also include areas where “living” or indoor camping can occur?

  28. Darrell Prince

    Disgusting use of a proposal forum. Reported folks. Even the ones I like.

    Yes, live/work, home, center, retail space, something amazing.

    I have looked a few, and I look forward to robust sessions of breakouts today.

  29. carole

    I’m glad to see that Justins passive-aggressive attempt to demean, belittle, and embarrass other memembers (especially in his post to me) has not gone unnoticed. I could respond point by point however that would detract from the purpose of this discussion of accquiring a legitimate space for OWS.

    Justin you do not intimidate me but your words are read by many at this site who may or may not be on the ground in NYC.

  30. notstevescher

    I note the following: a response attacking the individual and at the same time attacking the concepts the individual presents.

    I will now focus on the concepts:

    This website which I note ends in the domain name of ” net ” is preceded by five letters. The last two of those five letters stand for general assembly. The three letters directly before those last two letters stand for New York City.

    There are other general assembly’s currently in existence, including a number within the confines of New York City, as well as the surrounding area and elsewhere in the nation and the world. I therefore do not see anything incorrect in suggesting that to be a “member” here one should be working or living or in some way have something to do with being in New York City. The fact that everyone is made to feel welcome even if in fact they may not be aware that they are visitors does not negate the fact that this is the New York City Gen. Assembly website.

    The issue of the avatar is interesting. So far as I know there is no requirement, but it is nice to find a picture of the actual person, or at least a representation which is consistent in some way with the way they present themselves. You will note my avatar is one picked to communicate a thought or concept. It would be far better if it was my actual photo, but alas I am beyond shy. It’s my nature. I’m a bunny.

    Perhaps there should be some form of establishment of identity so that rules which are only suggested are instead enforced consistently across the board with everyone. I suppose at some point that will occur. Personally I favor it, but at this time is not yet in effect. At least to the best of my knowledge it’s not.

    Of course then we come up against the issue of those who wish to be anonymous because they are in fact members of “anonymous”. That is a discussion which I feel ill-equipped to participate in, although in a sense I am also anonymous. I will take the matter up instead with my psychiatrist next session.

    Now the issue of the physical ability to come to liberty Plaza does have legitimacy. Both in the form of the suggestions that an individual is able to ,should actually physically come here, making the haj. After all this is not a social club for progressives in the New York area, it is in fact a website of the Gen. assembly. The Gen. assembly in a sense exists ONLY in that which is called now and was a while ago, ” liberty Plaza”.

    So I see nothing wrong with suggesting that to be a member of this website or participate in this website that you actually meet the basic criteria of the evolution of this website. In time ( I’m sure if not sooner than later) there will be websites and virtual vehicles for others who do not quite fit within that cubbyhole. I myself am physically handicapped being able only to transport myself from my hat to the keyboard and back. At this time I have no small children, no other bunnies associate with me. So I have no comment on bringing children.

    Now as to dogmatic use of vocabulary. I agree that consistency is needed, and I note that in other working groups individuals who are in positions of responsibility refer to liberty Plaza at times still Zuccottii. I have reported them for that, however my reports were rejected and sent back to the marked “unknown address” or “Silly”.

    There is no question that at times certain members of our website seem rather extreme. Perhaps it’s their creative nature, or perhaps there are actually genuinely that fucked up in the head. I’ve also noted on occasion these individuals seem to modify their behavior at times and seem to also have the ability to make adjustments based on social interaction. We all different, and it is my personal opinion that everyone is actually insane, it’s just a matter of degree.

    As to meeting Justin in the park and recognizing Justin . I was there. I couldn’t recognize Justin. Perhaps it’s only because I’m only a foot tall.

    I would agree that Justin uses sarcasm in a way which has touched you and others causing your emotional response. As a basically insane rabbit I find his use of sarcasm right on target. Justified. Which could in fact explained his name

    And then there’s a whole bunch of additional stuff…

    “5. You use this site in any manner than as an “intranet” for OWS people who are physically “on the ground” in NYC.

    6. They are not using a real (sounding) name as your site ID.

    Plus, he has repeatedly explained to “outsiders” that they should go start their own GA and not try to participate where they aren’t welcome.

    And even if you qualify with all of these criteria, if you don’t agree with their enforcement, then you aren’t welcome either.

    Who can disagree? Justin has figured out the keys to building this movement. Kudos, Justin. You have my support. Keep up your good work purging those who can’t qualify for OWS participation”

    see, right now Justin is reading this. Is somewhat pissed. It is the nature of his brain to be controlling. (By the way that is the nature of everyone’s brain), and I would hazard a guess that he purposely chose not in any way shape or form to respond to any of the posts which I’ve been nibbling at.

    But I’m afraid I can’t help it. It’s like an itch that I must scratch. I don’t think he quite understands , or the nature of the interaction that I am attempting.

    I’m attempting to be a hypocrite. On the one hand as nicely as possible refute those specific points that have been made that are false to counter specific points that just as many, as well as to attempt to puncture any legitimacy of any of those what I see as personal attacks on him. On the other hand I’m pissed. Because on the other hand the topic of this thread is “space”. So here I am repeating over and over show support for the concepts which help nurture this particular movement but on the other hand simply by posting something other than something about “space”, rather than helping I’m actually contributing to some of the negativity.

    So I will now attempt to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

    The subject is space.

    I will close now the following question;

    “If a key falls in a hallway, is there no door”?

    We require imagery to function within the confines of our own minds. Imagery is not real, it is exactly what it sounds like, an image. Zuccotti, liberty, OWS..… Call it by any name and you make it a thing. It is not a thing.

    There is no floor.

    • Monica McLaughlin

      I believe that a very nice new site will soon launch that is not solely intended for the use of those in NYC. Can anyone tell me more about this?

      Hopefully, those of us who are interested in growing the movement through inclusiveness and connectivity with mainstream America will have a state-of-the-art online forum within which to do so. And hopefully, the message will reach donors that those interested in the national movement should donate to the national movement and those interested solely in NYC related topics and/or donation distribution by and for only New Yorkers should continue to donate to OWS NYC. That is a lot to hope for.

      There is no reason why a person could not participate in both the national and the local forums.

  31. Tom

    I sausages question that there is still no answer to the subject of getting a space for occupy.
    it is a shame to see that even in this group on finding a space that this is of late all about someone’s ego and needing to dominate our behaviors we’re on our website.
    this is still important question for Sage and others yet many others say because the space is not outside it will not command the same attention our effect. liberty plaza its forever in the national and world consciousness……now it’s time to make the difference by respecting each other to achieve addressing 99 percent off everything that is screwed up like the reasons homelessness and lack of health care for all and the continued wondering by the very very wealthy of the rest of us & all the other issues that we brought to the park. this is the time these are the times…. the spring is almost here we must learn how to get to the medium is the message for all of those things from the declaration from september 29th onwards. please let us remember we have passes for the people that are already so scared because of the crisis of the economy and the stated intents of the gop/ right wing and some democrats to completely destroy the middle class of this country which is going well so far…. and who knows what to the lower and lower middle class!
    so please we can rise above ourselves to review what we can represent to the media as ows.
    or maybe it is just that we have too many cooks in the kitchen, and too many people split up after the raid. it is hard for that was homeless organizations to get homes for people that are clients let alone our small 6 months old occupy…. and there are so many more occupies that we also have to look to see if they can help us with what we cannot see for ourselves. everyday every night I hope we keep a list of what demands are agreed upon and not just dangerous m15 attempt to re occupy liberty plaza with tents again and the m17 action to go there a parade full of drunk people and and the new york city police department with direct action once again not having the extremely important marshalls to keep the marches safe and non violent …
    and many of my friends and clients that are supporters of occupy note marches are not the most important thing right now… correcting the public idea of us having demos for demos sake and no marshalls and no messages clear is allowing us to still be a bizarre rendition of les miserabes but it is not appropriate to get specific message to the media which is the only way to have effective activision especially because these are tissues that are basically everything 99 percent!
    thank you for listening to my late nightwords but this is important to me and so many

    • Tom

      sorry folks, sausages typo in the first sentence of my last post was meant to be “saw the”

  32. Mark [Formerly Nobody Important] Ferguson

    @justinstoned – really? The OWS movement has to be all inclusive it the movement means nothing. It is your choice to compromise or not.

    @monjon22 – Compromise is the word of the day. Common ground is where we have to start and build this country’s future.

    Folks, this is an important movement, more important to me than my wants. I support the short term goal of removing outside influences from our political processes. Can we all agree on this single goal?

    Who here wants to see a continuation of this interference?

  33. Monica McLaughlin

    I very much support the goal of removing outside influences from our political processes.

  34. Mark [Formerly Nobody Important] Ferguson

    People, it is important to find some sort of space for the group in NY where the GA and the various WG’s can meet.